What if due to anti vaxxer’s herd immunity is a pipe dream?

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funeralxempire
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07 Jul 2021, 4:31 pm

auntblabby wrote:
i've heard way more than one anti-vaxxer/maga speak approvingly of letting the weak get killed by this bug.


Is it wrong to laugh at those people when they're on death's doorstep a few weeks later?

For some reason lots of the social Darwinist clique over-estimate their fitness and likelihood to survive if the situation becomes survival of the fittest.


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auntblabby
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07 Jul 2021, 4:34 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i've heard way more than one anti-vaxxer/maga speak approvingly of letting the weak get killed by this bug.


Is it wrong to laugh at those people when they're on death's doorstep a few weeks later?

For some reason lots of the social Darwinist clique over-estimate their fitness and likelihood to survive if the situation becomes survival of the fittest.

it is some physical fitness/toughness version of Dunning-Kreuger.



Fnord
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07 Jul 2021, 4:36 pm

auntblabby wrote:
i've heard way more than one anti-vaxxer/maga speak approvingly of letting the weak get killed by this bug.
Ironically, it will be the anti-vaxxers themselves who are most likely to succumb to the coronavirus.


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auntblabby
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07 Jul 2021, 4:37 pm

^^^i still think that is a tragedy for them and their uncomprehending families.



Fnord
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07 Jul 2021, 4:45 pm

auntblabby wrote:
^^^i still think that is a tragedy for them and their uncomprehending families.
Yes, there will be much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of clothing; but unless the anti-vaxxers pull their heads out of their YouTubes, there is no avoiding the inevitable.

One day, some of our members will simply stop posting, and we may never know why...


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Mr Reynholm
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07 Jul 2021, 10:22 pm

Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
If Covid is just going to keep mutating and getting deadlier all the time, then why haven't other strains of Coronavirus already done so and wiped out humanity?
Give it time, dude ... give it time ...
Nobody expects the Spanish  Inquisition  Flu!  Anyway, it is unfortunately quite feasible that a significantly more deadly variant of COVID will arise if anti-vaxxer stupidity enables it to circulate continuously.  After all, the SARS virus (another coronavirus ) was 79.6 % similar to COVID and had a case fatality rate of 11 %.
How are the unvaccinated a danger to the vaccinated?
Those who are unvaccinated are a fertile breeding ground for new variants of the coronavirus.

You, for example, could even now be harboring one of the latest coronavirus variants.

So each new variant of of COVID is invulnerable to the current vaccine and new vaccines will need to be produced for each new deadlier version?
Why did some earlier virus such as the Spanish Flu keep mutating into more deadly versions? Why doesn't every virus?



funeralxempire
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07 Jul 2021, 10:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
^^^i still think that is a tragedy for them and their uncomprehending families.
Yes, there will be much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of clothing; but unless the anti-vaxxers pull their heads out of their YouTubes, there is no avoiding the inevitable.

One day, some of our members will simply stop posting, and we may never know why...


It's chans and BitChute where most of this disinformation is spread.


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07 Jul 2021, 11:07 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
So each new variant of of COVID is invulnerable to the current vaccine and new vaccines will need to be produced for each new deadlier version?
Why did some earlier virus such as the Spanish Flu keep mutating into more deadly versions? Why doesn't every virus?

No, most new variants so far have been fairly vulnerable to the current vaccine (though it looks like some variants are already less vulnerable to it than others). But the more unvaccinated people there are mixing with other people, the larger the breeding ground, which creates more mutations and therefore a mutation that's highly vaccine-resistant (and therefore will spread like wildfire) will happen faster. It's a race between the creation of the first resistant mutation and the vaccine designers and producers. Unvaccinated people are helping the virus to win, unless they quarantine themselves perfectly, and mostly they aren't interested in doing that.



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08 Jul 2021, 7:08 am

funeralxempire wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i've heard way more than one anti-vaxxer/maga speak approvingly of letting the weak get killed by this bug.


Is it wrong to laugh at those people when they're on death's doorstep a few weeks later?


It's not even slightly wrong.


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Mr Reynholm
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08 Jul 2021, 4:00 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
So each new variant of of COVID is invulnerable to the current vaccine and new vaccines will need to be produced for each new deadlier version?
Why did some earlier virus such as the Spanish Flu keep mutating into more deadly versions? Why doesn't every virus?

No, most new variants so far have been fairly vulnerable to the current vaccine (though it looks like some variants are already less vulnerable to it than others). But the more unvaccinated people there are mixing with other people, the larger the breeding ground, which creates more mutations and therefore a mutation that's highly vaccine-resistant (and therefore will spread like wildfire) will happen faster. It's a race between the creation of the first resistant mutation and the vaccine designers and producers. Unvaccinated people are helping the virus to win, unless they quarantine themselves perfectly, and mostly they aren't interested in doing that.

So why has no other virus in history done this before? Mutated into deadlier versions that must be vaccinated against and quarantined from. Also why is the human immune system not capable of dealing with this particular Covid virus?



GGPViper
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08 Jul 2021, 4:13 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
So each new variant of of COVID is invulnerable to the current vaccine and new vaccines will need to be produced for each new deadlier version?
Why did some earlier virus such as the Spanish Flu keep mutating into more deadly versions? Why doesn't every virus?

No, most new variants so far have been fairly vulnerable to the current vaccine (though it looks like some variants are already less vulnerable to it than others). But the more unvaccinated people there are mixing with other people, the larger the breeding ground, which creates more mutations and therefore a mutation that's highly vaccine-resistant (and therefore will spread like wildfire) will happen faster. It's a race between the creation of the first resistant mutation and the vaccine designers and producers. Unvaccinated people are helping the virus to win, unless they quarantine themselves perfectly, and mostly they aren't interested in doing that.

So why has no other virus in history done this before? Mutated into deadlier versions that must be vaccinated against and quarantined from. Also why is the human immune system not capable of dealing with this particular Covid virus?

No other virus? Have you never heard of the Spanish Flu?

It killed at least 50 million people, after it mutated between the first and second wave in 1918...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Timeline

See something familiar ?:

Image



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08 Jul 2021, 9:30 pm

Unvaccinated people don't breed vaccine resistence.

There were no vaccines before the 1800's, so in the thousands of years of recorded human history,
if being unvaccinated bred resistence to vaccines, every virus and bacteria on earth would have been
100% resistant to vaccines long before vaccines were invented.

The suggestion that unvaccinated people breed vaccine resistance is a ridiculous nonsense.

You can make an argument that half-vaccinated would be a higher risk, but not that unvaccinated people cause it.

I think the root cause of vaccine resistance, is that these are really shoddy vaccines that don't stop you getting infected, and don't stop you passing it onto others.

As I see it that's what creates the pathway to vaccine resistance.

ToughDiamond wrote:
[
But the more unvaccinated people there are mixing with other people, the larger the breeding ground, which creates more mutations and therefore a mutation that's highly vaccine-resistant (and therefore will spread like wildfire) will happen faster. It's a race between the creation of the first resistant mutation and the vaccine designers and producers. Unvaccinated people are helping the virus to win, unless they quarantine themselves perfectly, and mostly they aren't interested in doing that.


That is incorrect, if a vaccine resistant mutation happens in an unvaccinated person, it's static.
It confers no benefit to the virus in the unvaccinated person, so their is nothing to amplify it over
any of the other viral mutations it's competing with.

It's only in a vaccinated person, that vaccine resistance gives the virus an edge, and amplifies it over non-resistant strains.

This is why I say their is an argument that half vaccinated people could pose an increased risk as they suppress the virus less than fully vaccinated people, but still confer an advantage to vaccine resistant mutations.

But the unvaccinated do not appear to pose such a risk.



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08 Jul 2021, 11:26 pm

I can see why you might think that, but a vaccine-resistant variant that happens to pop up in an unvaccinated person won't necessarily curl up and die immediately. It might be there in smaller amounts but it'll still be there. Just because a mutation isn't currently advantageous doesn't mean it'll vanish. The mutation would have to be significantly interfering with the virus' ability to thrive before that would happen. Many mutations do nothing one way or the other. The more live Covid there is floating around in aerosols, the greater the risk of a "breakthrough variant" taking hold. It doesn't take many virus particles to seed the process. And I don't see why all these health professionals would be so concerned about the risk if it were as simple as you think. But I think you may be right that a half-vaccinated person could be more dangerous.



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10 Jul 2021, 9:00 pm

What would make sense, IMO, would be to lift restrictions in rural areas but not in cities.

Without masks and social distancing, New York City would be one big super-spreader event all day every day. IMO all businesses here should be allowed to be open, but with limitations (e.g. all businesses that inherently can't require masks, e.g. restaurants, must require customers to show a vaccination card). And certainly the subways and buses should continue to require masks.


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10 Jul 2021, 11:20 pm

^
Yes I'd think that ought to be an important consideration when deciding on restrictions. It would also help public health if they would leave politics aside when they were taking medical decisions, in as far as politics is irrelevent to public health. For example, if a restriction screws with business, so be it. The government can always take business into its own control if need be, like the UK largely did during the second world war. No sensible family would continue to do unnecessary things if they became dangerous, but the UK government was so concerned with the economic state of the hospitality sector that it subsidised a half-price "eat out to help out" scheme to prop up restaurants by encouraging people to eat indoors, an activity now thought to have been a big factor in one of the virus waves. They just didn't seem interested in the fact that it's not public health interventions as such that wreck the economy, it's the pandemic.