Do men dismiss feminism as bad too much?

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Mona Pereth
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15 Jul 2021, 8:48 am

Fnord wrote:
However, reality seems to be that everyone wants to "marry up" -- that is, most people seem to want a relationship with someone who is better-looking, wealthier, and of a higher social status than they are.

Alas, within the past decade or so, there seems to be, on the part of both men and women, an increased popular obsession with both the appearance and the overall social status of one's partner, relative to what I remember from a decade or two ago.

If indeed this is actually happening, I think it would probably be due to the shrinking middle class. In that case, it could probably be remedied by better general economic policies IMO.

Or perhaps it's due to the rise of popular online dating apps?

But I'm not sure whether popular attitudes have actually regressed in this way, or whether there's just more talk about them on the Internet.


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Nades
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15 Jul 2021, 10:45 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Fnord wrote:
However, reality seems to be that everyone wants to "marry up" -- that is, most people seem to want a relationship with someone who is better-looking, wealthier, and of a higher social status than they are.

Alas, within the past decade or so, there seems to be, on the part of both men and women, an increased popular obsession with both the appearance and the overall social status of one's partner, relative to what I remember from a decade or two ago.

If indeed this is actually happening, I think it would probably be due to the shrinking middle class. In that case, it could probably be remedied by better general economic policies IMO.

Or perhaps it's due to the rise of popular online dating apps?

But I'm not sure whether popular attitudes have actually regressed in this way, or whether there's just more talk about them on the Internet.


It's hard to tell really. Marrying up has always been sought as the ideal relationship to many but I think the disparity between men and women finance wise means many cannot avoid marrying up if they tried and it doesn't necessarily make such a person vain.

Where there is an obvious difference in abilities, finances and status with the "lower" partner clearly and knowingly being an annoying limpet on the other more capable partner then I would consider it selfish and vain. There are plenty of limpets out there both male and female which I never understand. Who would want to intentionally underachieve in their own lives with the purposes of depending on another and living life through someone else?

Weird but possible.



Harry Haller
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15 Jul 2021, 11:26 am

Any -ism divides; so is suspect.
Creates an "us" and therefore "them."

There are already too many divisions.
We are just people.

Even Lao Tzu knew this, 2500 years ago, writing in part:

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names.
There are already enough names.
One must know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop averts trouble.
Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea.



Mona Pereth
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15 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

Harry Haller wrote:
Any -ism divides; so is suspect.
Creates an "us" and therefore "them."

It's not like we were happily united before.

After needed rights are achieved, then we can talk about how to become more harmonious and united.


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15 Jul 2021, 2:02 pm

Probably, but it also does not help that you have a lot of extremist self proclaimed feminists on the internet, that go misrepresenting it. That is why you end up with subreddits like r/Female Dating Strategy, it is one of the best examples of the sort of extremist feminists I'm referring to.

They have it morphed into some weird thing where the goal is a women only society because women don't need men, or something that would basically be like the opposite of what feminists fought for except reversed with men being the second class citizens. Plus they've even created their own mold that if you're a woman who doesn't fit in it then you're part of the problem. I don't think that is feminism but seems some people call that feminism, but I don't think it was ever about creating the reverse of of a social structure that favors men over women, but seems some people want to make it into that rather than keep it as being for equality.


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Mona Pereth
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15 Jul 2021, 9:36 pm

Agreed that there have been some very bad ideas advocated in the name of feminism. Most of these bad ideas don't represent the mainstream of feminism, however.

Here in the U.S.A. at least, the mainstream of feminism is represented by the National Organization for Women (NOW), whose aims are listed here.


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15 Jul 2021, 10:17 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Probably, but it also does not help that you have a lot of extremist self proclaimed feminists on the internet, that go misrepresenting it. That is why you end up with subreddits like r/Female Dating Strategy, it is one of the best examples of the sort of extremist feminists I'm referring to.


There's an Australian government ad campaign doing the rounds on TV currently.

In the campaign two men are watching a women's sport's match on TV while drinking beer and one comments that "its boring and not exciting as men's sport and that there's only one reason he watches women's sport with a wink and smile"

The other man turns to him and says "that's not on" "it's not right". Then the first man apologises, and admits he went too far.

The problem I have with this contrived conversation is that I know men in groups (outside of the workplace) will say much much worse things than the dialogue from this advertisement. I am sure the same happens if there is a private discussion between buddies about LGBTQI, disability or race. Especially if they have been drinking.

I think the gap between what women expect from men and what men are willing to do has some distance to close the gap.



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15 Jul 2021, 10:25 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed that there have been some very bad ideas advocated in the name of feminism. Most of these bad ideas don't represent the mainstream of feminism, however.


Feminism is like other social/civil movements in that an equal playing field is the appropriate justification/end goal. For gay men and PoC there really isn't any justification to but barriers/hurdles as they are capable of anything straight white men can do.

This doesn't apply to disability and unfortunately the social barriers applied, particularly to people with serious disabilities is quite substantial and even extends to their ability/freedom to be allowed to be autonomous, get a job, get married and have children.

For gender differences it does mean there are a few things men do that in performative terms women may not be able to achieve due to biology. However this isn't exactly an exhaustive list, and the nuance here is very minor. But we still need to recognise men and women aren't clones.



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16 Jul 2021, 1:39 am

cyberdad wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed that there have been some very bad ideas advocated in the name of feminism. Most of these bad ideas don't represent the mainstream of feminism, however.


Feminism is like other social/civil movements in that an equal playing field is the appropriate justification/end goal. For gay men and PoC there really isn't any justification to but barriers/hurdles as they are capable of anything straight white men can do.

This doesn't apply to disability and unfortunately the social barriers applied, particularly to people with serious disabilities is quite substantial and even extends to their ability/freedom to be allowed to be autonomous, get a job, get married and have children.

For gender differences it does mean there are a few things men do that in performative terms women may not be able to achieve due to biology. However this isn't exactly an exhaustive list, and the nuance here is very minor. But we still need to recognise men and women aren't clones.


I forgot where I heard it but someone said women prefer dealing with people and men prefer dealing with things. There are differences between men and women and not just obvious physical differences but also psychological ones. Men and women are naturally going to sort themselves into different boxes if left entirely to their own devices. Being in different boxes isn't indicative of discrimination.

Even my own close family is sorting themselves into boxes. My mother, grandmother and female cousins will swoon over young kids all day long. The males on the other hand including my father will be like a pig in muck if they could be left alone with a tired old classic car.

The women find tinkering with cars all day weird and the men think baby babbling to toddlers all day long is weird.



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16 Jul 2021, 1:52 am

Nades wrote:
I forgot where I heard it but someone said women prefer dealing with people and men prefer dealing with things. There are differences between men and women and not just obvious physical differences but also psychological ones. Men and women are naturally going to sort themselves into different boxes if left entirely to their own devices. Being in different boxes isn't indicative of discrimination.

Even my own close family is sorting themselves into boxes. My mother, grandmother and female cousins will swoon over young kids all day long. The males on the other hand including my father will be like a pig in muck if they could be left alone with a tired old classic car.

The women find tinkering with cars all day weird and the men think baby babbling to toddlers all day long is weird.


Yes unlike race or sexual preference, gender does mean some difference in brain wiring as well as physical/physiological differences.

The example you gave about women and babies is relevant in explaining why nursing, early chidhood education and childcare is almost exclusively female. Women are more nurturing, I much prefer a female nurse to a male one.



Mona Pereth
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16 Jul 2021, 5:39 am

Nades wrote:
I forgot where I heard it but someone said women prefer dealing with people and men prefer dealing with things.

This is an over-generalization. It may be true of the majority, but there also do exist men who prefer dealing with people and women who prefer dealing with things -- and they should have the right to choose careers that match their individual abilities and inclinations, without being steered into boxes by gender.

Also, what kinds of jobs are considered "women's jobs" vs. "men's jobs" varies over time. For example, computer programming was originally considered to be a women's job, because computer programmers replaced book-keepers and "human computers," who were mostly women. But then, as there got to be more and more demand for computer programmers and it became a higher-paying job, more and more men got attracted into the field.


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16 Jul 2021, 9:46 am

HarpyEagle wrote:
Hi iron pony. I don't really understand your post. Are you actually saying that feminism is good because it makes women more sexually attractive. Have I gone back in time? Is it 1973?


Yes I am saying that it makes them more sexually attractive. But doesn't that apply to now as well, and not just 1973?



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16 Jul 2021, 9:52 am

HarpyEagle wrote:
Hi iron pony. I don't really understand your post. Are you actually saying that feminism is good because it makes women more sexually attractive. Have I gone back in time? Is it 1973?
There is something attractive about women with traditionally "male" college degrees working in traditionally "male" professions who are self-assured, confident, and comfortable in their own skins.  When working with them, I feel like I am working with an equal, and not just an unqualified "token" employee.


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16 Jul 2021, 10:25 am

Yes I think men dismiss feminism too much. I've heard some men say feminists hate men but I think only TERFs hate men (as well as transwomen who are considered to be men by TERFs).

I really think that feminism helps with the problem of unfair expectations to be macho that are placed on men, not only by other men but also be women who aren't feminists. In my personal experience I've found that women who believe men are greater than women want men to have greater responsibility then women.

Feminists don't like chivalry, right? Good. I want chivalry to be dead.


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16 Jul 2021, 10:39 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed that there have been some very bad ideas advocated in the name of feminism. Most of these bad ideas don't represent the mainstream of feminism, however.

Here in the U.S.A. at least, the mainstream of feminism is represented by the National Organization for Women (NOW), whose aims are listed here.


Well exactly, and those bad ideas get spread around all over the internet. For sure it doesn't really represent what feminism is, but I can see why a person might have some negative views on it, if that is the first impression they get. Not sure what the solution for that is though.


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16 Jul 2021, 10:43 am

Feminist -- both male and female -- must realize changing and enforcing the laws to make our culture more fair and just is wasted effort if individuals do not act on the opportunities afforded by those laws.

• What good is Equal Opportunity education if someone only wants to take "easy" college courses?

• What good is Equal Opportunity employment if someone only wants to work in a fast-food restaurant?

• What good is Equal Opportunity housing if someone only wants to "marry into" someone else's home?

Equal Opportunity laws are worthless when the people they are intended to help do nothing to take advantage of those laws.


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