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Fnord
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19 Jul 2021, 12:58 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Truancy isn't the topic of the thread,
This topic is about a law that requires children to attend school, and how that law was enforced.
No, this topic is about whatever funeralxempire -- the originator of this thread -- says it is.
funeralxempire wrote:
But we can't ignore the goal. Kill the Indian, save the man.
Or, "Destroy the village to save it."

More broadly, destroying local cultures in the minds of children to save and promote the culture of the conquering empire.  To do so, one must first separate the children from that culture, label all aspects of that culture as "dirty", "evil", or "stupid", and the fill the children's minds with the "approved" imperial culture.


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funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2021, 1:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Or, "Destroy the village to save it."


Honestly, I'd say adding that waters it down slightly. It's not a recent coining to describe the goal so adding more analogies doesn't build it up, kill the Indian to save the man is the phrase used by Richard Henry Pratt to describe the goal of his institution.

Fnord wrote:
More broadly, destroying local cultures in the minds of children to save and promote the culture of the conquering empire.  To do so, one must first separate the children from that culture, label all aspects of that culture as "dirty", "evil", or "stupid", and the fill the children's minds with the "approved" imperial culture.


That seems to be a major factor in how this institutions harmed those sent to them. The goal was to erase who you were and abuse was an accepted tactic to achieve that goal at least partially because child abuse was the cultural norm in the culture trying to impose their norms.

It was also more broadly an accepted norm to reform people's behaviour within that culture. The people demeaning others as worthless barbarians who need to change were utter barbarians themselves.


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Fnord
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19 Jul 2021, 1:37 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Or, "Destroy the village to save it."
Honestly, I'd say adding that waters it down slightly. It's not a recent coining to describe the goal so adding more analogies doesn't build it up, kill the Indian to save the man is the phrase used by Richard Henry Pratt to describe the goal of his institution.
Good point.  I was citing the example of the My Lai Massacre to support your argument.
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
More broadly, destroying local cultures in the minds of children to save and promote the culture of the conquering empire.  To do so, one must first separate the children from that culture, label all aspects of that culture as "dirty", "evil", or "stupid", and the fill the children's minds with the "approved" imperial culture.
That seems to be a major factor in how this institutions harmed those sent to them.  The goal was to erase who you were and abuse was an accepted tactic to achieve that goal at least partially because child abuse was the cultural norm in the culture trying to impose their norms.  It was also more broadly an accepted norm to reform people's behaviour within that culture. The people demeaning others as worthless barbarians who need to change were utter barbarians themselves.
I had in mind the 18th- and 19th-century Great British Empire in India and Ireland when I typed that.  Since Canada and the U.S. are both offspring of the G.B.E., it makes sense that the same tactics they used against other British colonies would be used here, as well.


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19 Jul 2021, 1:39 pm

I once heard somebody say that Indian casinos made up for all the past atrocities. I s**t you not!


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Fnord
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19 Jul 2021, 1:52 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
I once heard somebody say that Indian casinos made up for all the past atrocities. I s**t you not!
A myth, along the lines of "Montezuma's Revenge".


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funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2021, 1:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Or, "Destroy the village to save it."
Honestly, I'd say adding that waters it down slightly. It's not a recent coining to describe the goal so adding more analogies doesn't build it up, kill the Indian to save the man is the phrase used by Richard Henry Pratt to describe the goal of his institution.
Good point.  I was citing the example of the My Lai Massacre to support your argument.
funeralxempire wrote:
Fnord wrote:
More broadly, destroying local cultures in the minds of children to save and promote the culture of the conquering empire.  To do so, one must first separate the children from that culture, label all aspects of that culture as "dirty", "evil", or "stupid", and the fill the children's minds with the "approved" imperial culture.
That seems to be a major factor in how this institutions harmed those sent to them.  The goal was to erase who you were and abuse was an accepted tactic to achieve that goal at least partially because child abuse was the cultural norm in the culture trying to impose their norms.  It was also more broadly an accepted norm to reform people's behaviour within that culture. The people demeaning others as worthless barbarians who need to change were utter barbarians themselves.
I had in mind the 18th- and 19th-century Great British Empire in India and Ireland when I typed that.  Since Canada and the U.S. are both offspring of the G.B.E., it makes sense that the same tactics they used against other British colonies would be used here, as well.


On the first point, I understood what you were after but wanted to clarify the origins of the phrase I used because it might get dismissed as an analogy or a modern coining instead of being understood as the plan as summarized by the guy who came up with it.

On the second, absolutely. The phrases you used are also mirrored by survivors of Canada's residential schools in a lot of articles.

What I find interesting is that our culture, as a descendent of that culture is just starting to deal with how toxic that culture was. Boomers catch a lot of flak but sometimes it's just for not being able to fix or even recognize all of the problems because of how f*****g terrible the culture really was. It's not really a fair expectation.


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19 Jul 2021, 1:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Truancy isn't the topic of the thread,
This topic is about a law that requires children to attend school, and how that law was enforced.
No, this topic is about whatever funeralxempire -- the originator of this thread -- says it is.

This topic is about Indian Civilization Act of 1819

"Indian Civilization Act of 1819, the US enacted laws and policies to establish and support Indian boarding schools across the country. For more than 150 years, Indigenous children were taken from their communities and forced into boarding schools that focused on assimilation"

This topic begs the question of whether governments should have the authority to take kids and send them to government approved education centers as they do now for truancy.


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19 Jul 2021, 1:58 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Truancy isn't the topic of the thread,
This topic is about a law that requires children to attend school, and how that law was enforced.
No, this topic is about whatever funeralxempire -- the originator of this thread -- says it is.

This topic is about Indian Civilization Act of 1819

"Indian Civilization Act of 1819, the US enacted laws and policies to establish and support Indian boarding schools across the country. For more than 150 years, Indigenous children were taken from their communities and forced into boarding schools that focused on assimilation"

This topic begs the question of whether the governments should have the authority to take kids and send them to government approved education centers as they do now for truancy.


An act that is openly calling for what is now understood to be cultural genocide. The goal was to eradicate their culture and identity as a distinct group of people.


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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19 Jul 2021, 4:43 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
[...] What I find interesting is that our culture, as a descendent of that culture is just starting to deal with how toxic that culture was. Boomers catch a lot of flak but sometimes it's just for not being able to fix or even recognize all of the problems because of how f*****g terrible the culture really was. It's not really a fair expectation.
As a "Boomer", it seems as if someone has handed me a promissory note signed by my great-great-grandfather, and they expect me to pay it all off immediately ... and with interest.


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funeralxempire
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19 Jul 2021, 5:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
[...] What I find interesting is that our culture, as a descendent of that culture is just starting to deal with how toxic that culture was. Boomers catch a lot of flak but sometimes it's just for not being able to fix or even recognize all of the problems because of how f*****g terrible the culture really was. It's not really a fair expectation.
As a "Boomer", it seems like someone has handed me a promissory note signed by my great-great-grandfather, and they expect to pay it all off immediately ... and with interest.


Intergenerational trauma isn't limited to people who's societies were harmed by colonial activities. It's actually a very broadly applicable concept and I think it goes a long way to explaining why certain mistakes get made over and over again and why certain patterns play out at a high level (epic or grand scale) but also get mirrored at the interpersonal level.

Everybody's been harmed by their parents fuck-ups, including their parents (and theirs, it's parents all the way down).

How we learn to cope with this trauma and get over it matters to how a society develops, but for a lot of marginalized communities the ability to properly grieve and heal is denied by having those traumas repeatedly justified and defended, sometimes even on an institutional level. This ends up impacting the ability to assimilate, ironically undermining the goals of those who scorn whatever group it might be for not assimilating. I don't just mean visible minorities or indigenous peoples when I say marginalized either, I'm intentionally picking a generic term because I believe it's that broadly applicable.

I can understand the feeling of the analogy you use, but for the people who are prone to excessively black and white thinking on this they want your generation's economic prosperity and they're angry to realize most people from that generation weren't proto-woke hippies, and that even some of the ones who were didn't mean it and that the ones who did mean it largely failed because they weren't the majority.

They're angry they weren't handed the world they want because a lot of them are literally children and not mature enough to understand that liberalism and socialism have both been fighting to expand egalitarianism (sometimes in conflicting ways) but that progress isn't ensured and it takes constant effort and struggle.

Civilizations are built when people plant trees they know they'll never enjoy the shade of**. Some boomers voted in such a way that some trees were felled for their benefit while other boomers helped plant different trees. Some X/Y/Zers are more aware of the trees that were felled than the ones that were planted and they bear a reasonable sense of frustration over it, but it is an easy issue to lose sight of other perspectives on.

** Forget the source but definitely not mine. :nerdy:


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19 Jul 2021, 10:24 pm

An excellent source of history information and help for survivors.

https://boardingschoolhealing.org/educa ... l-history/


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20 Jul 2021, 7:22 am

funeralxempire wrote:
An act that is openly calling for what is now understood to be cultural genocide. The goal was to eradicate their culture and identity as a distinct group of people.

The government likely justifies compulsory education with reasoning that education helps people, and educated workers help the country.


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21 Jul 2021, 12:30 am

When my grandpa was growing up in Southern Illinois, Choctaw people in the area would be arrested for speaking their language (possibly others as well, but I've only specifically heard Choctaw). I realized a few years ago that he's still dealing with that. Trying to get him to talk about our heritage at all is like there's some secret code (or something), like we might end up in jail if anybody knows we aren't white. It's really overwhelming to try to cope with all of it. I don't know if anyone in my family ended up in a boarding school at any point, but I know there's a state prison named after the group of people we're descended from in my home state (which makes me feel some way I can't describe with words).
"Save them with the bible or the bullet" was a thing people said.
I'm pretty sure the US constitution was still using the word "savages" pretty recently.



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21 Jul 2021, 11:50 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
An act that is openly calling for what is now understood to be cultural genocide. The goal was to eradicate their culture and identity as a distinct group of people.

The government likely justifies compulsory education with reasoning that education helps people, and educated workers help the country.


The justification used to defend genocidal actions doesn't change that the actions were genocidal in nature, no?


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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18 Jan 2022, 8:16 pm

Have any of the bodies in Kamloops been exhumed?

I'm reading they are disputing the claim based on the ground penetrating radar was conducted in an apple orchard.



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18 Jan 2022, 10:56 pm

blazingstar wrote:
There's no question that white Americans have a lot to answer for in the disastrous decision to remove children from their homes, and essentially treat them like animals.

No clearer example is needed to illustrate how whites around the world considered indigenous peoples to be sub-human and their lands and resources to be ours for the taking.


This is unironically racist.


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