Texas Senate Bill - Can’t teach KKK is morally wrong

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QFT
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23 Jul 2021, 6:52 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
But again, what about non-violent branches of a klan? What are they doing, just sitting around drinking beer? They are probably involved in politics of some sort. I


I've watched enough documentaries and read enough books on the far right to know that being a member of a "white supremacist group" means there is no advocating non-violence. Have you ever seen or heard of a skinhead or fellow with a swastika tattoo are a robed klansman get in front of their fellow goons and preach love and tolerance for non-white people?

If you are referring to the odd Nazi who is cornered on camera then :roll: of course, they are snivelling cowards who don't want to attract police attention. A few might have jobs and don't want their employer to give them the sack so they make up stories.

Being a member of a far right group requires a demonstration of loyalty/fielty/obedience. Like gang initiation.


Correct; there is no such thing as nonviolent white supremacists. I could care less what David Duke claims about the Klan renouncing violence.


David Duke is non-violent white supremacist right there. If you disagree, give me a specific incident of violence involving David Duke as a perpetrator.


You do realize you're defending human trash, David Duke, don't you?


If I say he is not guilty of something specific (violence) that doesn't mean that he is a good person overall. Okay what would happen if I say "David Duke didn't cause Chernobyl explosion". Would you also say I am defending human trash? So then, are you implying that David Duke DID cause Chernobyl explosion, just because he is a horrible person so anything horrible has to be his fault by default?


No, but claiming Duke represents nonviolent racism implies it, as violence and white supremacy go hand-in-hand with violent actions.


I don't see how the two can go hand in hand. One is a belief, the other is an action. It should be logically possible to hold white supremacist beliefs without engaging in violent acts. As a matter of fact, engaging in violent acts would be detrimental to white supremacy cause since the person doing it would be thrown in jail and not much can be accomplished from jail.



QFT
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23 Jul 2021, 6:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
White supremacy IS violence. Full stop.


White supremacy is an opinion. Violence is an action. You can't equate an opinion to an action. The opinion can "result" in the action, but it doesn't have to.


Yet the two go together so often that it would otherwise be an incredible coincidence to think they weren't connected.


Often is not always.

"Often" implies they are connected, YES.

But "connected" does not imply they ALWAYS go together.

Islam and terrorism are connected yet the majority of Muslims aren't terrorists.



Kraichgauer
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23 Jul 2021, 6:56 pm

QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
But again, what about non-violent branches of a klan? What are they doing, just sitting around drinking beer? They are probably involved in politics of some sort. I


I've watched enough documentaries and read enough books on the far right to know that being a member of a "white supremacist group" means there is no advocating non-violence. Have you ever seen or heard of a skinhead or fellow with a swastika tattoo are a robed klansman get in front of their fellow goons and preach love and tolerance for non-white people?

If you are referring to the odd Nazi who is cornered on camera then :roll: of course, they are snivelling cowards who don't want to attract police attention. A few might have jobs and don't want their employer to give them the sack so they make up stories.

Being a member of a far right group requires a demonstration of loyalty/fielty/obedience. Like gang initiation.


Correct; there is no such thing as nonviolent white supremacists. I could care less what David Duke claims about the Klan renouncing violence.


David Duke is non-violent white supremacist right there. If you disagree, give me a specific incident of violence involving David Duke as a perpetrator.


You do realize you're defending human trash, David Duke, don't you?


If I say he is not guilty of something specific (violence) that doesn't mean that he is a good person overall. Okay what would happen if I say "David Duke didn't cause Chernobyl explosion". Would you also say I am defending human trash? So then, are you implying that David Duke DID cause Chernobyl explosion, just because he is a horrible person so anything horrible has to be his fault by default?


No, but claiming Duke represents nonviolent racism implies it, as violence and white supremacy go hand-in-hand with violent actions.


I don't see how the two can go hand in hand. One is a belief, the other is an action. It should be logically possible to hold white supremacist beliefs without engaging in violent acts. As a matter of fact, engaging in violent acts would be detrimental to white supremacy cause since the person doing it would be thrown in jail and not much can be accomplished from jail.


Because the name itself - white supremacy - speaks of whites having power over nonwhites. And the only way that's ever been accomplished or maintained was through violence against said nonwhites, or whites sympathetic to the oppressed.


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QFT
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23 Jul 2021, 6:57 pm

Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.



funeralxempire
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23 Jul 2021, 6:58 pm

QFT wrote:
As a matter of fact, engaging in violent acts would be detrimental to white supremacy cause since the person doing it would be thrown in jail and not much can be accomplished from jail.


How often are they actually convicted and held accountable? That's a weak defence when we both know it's rare.


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23 Jul 2021, 6:59 pm

QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
White supremacy IS violence. Full stop.


White supremacy is an opinion. Violence is an action. You can't equate an opinion to an action. The opinion can "result" in the action, but it doesn't have to.


Yet the two go together so often that it would otherwise be an incredible coincidence to think they weren't connected.


Often is not always.

"Often" implies they are connected, YES.

But "connected" does not imply they ALWAYS go together.

Islam and terrorism are connected yet the majority of Muslims aren't terrorists.


But the majority of Muslims aren't Islamists, either. Those holding violent beliefs of suppressing and destroying the infidels tend to be violent. Same with David Duke, whose record of criminal racism has been revealed already on this thread.


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funeralxempire
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23 Jul 2021, 7:00 pm

QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Teaching that the Klan violated American law and the rights of American citizens, that their actions were, are and will always be contrary to American values seems like it should be part of civics and history courses, if it isn't already. Is that really too much to expect?


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


QFT
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23 Jul 2021, 7:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
But again, what about non-violent branches of a klan? What are they doing, just sitting around drinking beer? They are probably involved in politics of some sort. I


I've watched enough documentaries and read enough books on the far right to know that being a member of a "white supremacist group" means there is no advocating non-violence. Have you ever seen or heard of a skinhead or fellow with a swastika tattoo are a robed klansman get in front of their fellow goons and preach love and tolerance for non-white people?

If you are referring to the odd Nazi who is cornered on camera then :roll: of course, they are snivelling cowards who don't want to attract police attention. A few might have jobs and don't want their employer to give them the sack so they make up stories.

Being a member of a far right group requires a demonstration of loyalty/fielty/obedience. Like gang initiation.


Correct; there is no such thing as nonviolent white supremacists. I could care less what David Duke claims about the Klan renouncing violence.


David Duke is non-violent white supremacist right there. If you disagree, give me a specific incident of violence involving David Duke as a perpetrator.


You do realize you're defending human trash, David Duke, don't you?


If I say he is not guilty of something specific (violence) that doesn't mean that he is a good person overall. Okay what would happen if I say "David Duke didn't cause Chernobyl explosion". Would you also say I am defending human trash? So then, are you implying that David Duke DID cause Chernobyl explosion, just because he is a horrible person so anything horrible has to be his fault by default?


No, but claiming Duke represents nonviolent racism implies it, as violence and white supremacy go hand-in-hand with violent actions.


I don't see how the two can go hand in hand. One is a belief, the other is an action. It should be logically possible to hold white supremacist beliefs without engaging in violent acts. As a matter of fact, engaging in violent acts would be detrimental to white supremacy cause since the person doing it would be thrown in jail and not much can be accomplished from jail.


Because the name itself - white supremacy - speaks of whites having power over nonwhites. And the only way that's ever been accomplished or maintained was through violence against said nonwhites, or whites sympathetic to the oppressed.


Supremacy is not referring to physical power, it is referring to mental power. Physically, everyone knows blacks are stronger. The point that white supremacists are making is that whites are smarter. And also, in David Duke's videos he never talked about who is entitled to physically overpower whom. He talked about who should get admitted to colleges or have a job, etc.



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23 Jul 2021, 7:03 pm

QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Well, I personally would like my daughter taught in school that the Klan is evil, otherwise the implication that there is no moral judgement of racism might be taken to mean it's not an evil. And I personally believe that's the intent with the Texas bill.


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23 Jul 2021, 7:03 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Teaching that the Klan violated American law and the rights of American citizens, that their actions were, are and will always be contrary to American values seems like it should be part of civics and history courses, if it isn't already. Is that really too much to expect?


As far as whether they violated American law, that is a good question. Because at some point in history blacks weren't protected by the law I believe. Now, of course, the fact that blacks weren't protected by the law is immoral in and of itself. But shouldn't this be obvious without teacher having to say this? Again, we are not talkign about teacher simply mentioning it because they chose to, we are talking about schools being REQUIRED to teach it.



funeralxempire
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23 Jul 2021, 7:04 pm

QFT wrote:
Supremacy is not referring to physical power, it is referring to mental power. Physically, everyone knows blacks are stronger. The point that white supremacists are making is that whites are smarter. And also, in David Duke's videos he never talked about who is entitled to physically overpower whom. He talked about who should get admitted to colleges or have a job, etc.


It isn't referring to mental power either.

It's referring to viewing their culture and their persons being inherently more valuable and the belief that this should be reflected legally.

They'll take the same attitude towards PoC who are their intellectual superiors as anyone else they look down upon.


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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23 Jul 2021, 7:05 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Well, I personally would like my daughter taught in school that the Klan is evil, otherwise the implication that there is no moral judgement of racism might be taken to mean it's not an evil. And I personally believe that's the intent with the Texas bill.


Well, what if the teacher says "most people think its evil". Then there won't be an implication that its not evil. Yet then it would be all down to facts. What most people think, that is a fact. What it actually is, that is an opinion.



Kraichgauer
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23 Jul 2021, 7:06 pm

QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
But again, what about non-violent branches of a klan? What are they doing, just sitting around drinking beer? They are probably involved in politics of some sort. I


I've watched enough documentaries and read enough books on the far right to know that being a member of a "white supremacist group" means there is no advocating non-violence. Have you ever seen or heard of a skinhead or fellow with a swastika tattoo are a robed klansman get in front of their fellow goons and preach love and tolerance for non-white people?

If you are referring to the odd Nazi who is cornered on camera then :roll: of course, they are snivelling cowards who don't want to attract police attention. A few might have jobs and don't want their employer to give them the sack so they make up stories.

Being a member of a far right group requires a demonstration of loyalty/fielty/obedience. Like gang initiation.


Correct; there is no such thing as nonviolent white supremacists. I could care less what David Duke claims about the Klan renouncing violence.


David Duke is non-violent white supremacist right there. If you disagree, give me a specific incident of violence involving David Duke as a perpetrator.


You do realize you're defending human trash, David Duke, don't you?


If I say he is not guilty of something specific (violence) that doesn't mean that he is a good person overall. Okay what would happen if I say "David Duke didn't cause Chernobyl explosion". Would you also say I am defending human trash? So then, are you implying that David Duke DID cause Chernobyl explosion, just because he is a horrible person so anything horrible has to be his fault by default?


No, but claiming Duke represents nonviolent racism implies it, as violence and white supremacy go hand-in-hand with violent actions.


I don't see how the two can go hand in hand. One is a belief, the other is an action. It should be logically possible to hold white supremacist beliefs without engaging in violent acts. As a matter of fact, engaging in violent acts would be detrimental to white supremacy cause since the person doing it would be thrown in jail and not much can be accomplished from jail.


Because the name itself - white supremacy - speaks of whites having power over nonwhites. And the only way that's ever been accomplished or maintained was through violence against said nonwhites, or whites sympathetic to the oppressed.


Supremacy is not referring to physical power, it is referring to mental power. Physically, everyone knows blacks are stronger. The point that white supremacists are making is that whites are smarter. And also, in David Duke's videos he never talked about who is entitled to physically overpower whom. He talked about who should get admitted to colleges or have a job, etc.


Never in the history of white supremacy has it not been about physical power of nonwhites.


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23 Jul 2021, 7:09 pm

QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Teaching that the Klan violated American law and the rights of American citizens, that their actions were, are and will always be contrary to American values seems like it should be part of civics and history courses, if it isn't already. Is that really too much to expect?


As far as whether they violated American law, that is a good question. Because at some point in history blacks weren't protected by the law I believe. Now, of course, the fact that blacks weren't protected by the law is immoral in and of itself. But shouldn't this be obvious without teacher having to say this? Again, we are not talkign about teacher simply mentioning it because they chose to, we are talking about schools being REQUIRED to teach it.


Among things, if American legal systems failed to protect all Americans that's a problem of it's own that should be condemned.

The Klan was formed after slavery was ended, so their crimes would have indeed been against American citizens, but even if they weren't it wouldn't be the slightest excuse in their defence.

The Klan are relevant to American history, their crimes are and the consequences of their crimes are. This should be part of every American student's basic history curriculum because otherwise you're ignoring important issues that continue to be relevant, and for what purpose? To keep the kids growing up in pro-Klan families from offending their parents? That's a terrible excuse to ignore important parts American history.


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Kraichgauer
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23 Jul 2021, 7:15 pm

QFT wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
QFT wrote:
Okay lets make one thing clear. As far as MY opinion, I believe KKK is morally wrong. But that is not what we were discussing. We were discussing whether the schools should be REQUIRED to teach it. Thats a bit different isn't it. Religions schools? Maybe. Secular schools? I think they should encourage critical thinking as opposed to listening to teacher's opinions.


Well, I personally would like my daughter taught in school that the Klan is evil, otherwise the implication that there is no moral judgement of racism might be taken to mean it's not an evil. And I personally believe that's the intent with the Texas bill.


Well, what if the teacher says "most people think its evil". Then there won't be an implication that its not evil. Yet then it would be all down to facts. What most people think, that is a fact. What it actually is, that is an opinion.


Racial hate being evil isn't just an opinion.


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23 Jul 2021, 9:32 pm

QFT, supremacy does not equate to hegemony.

A ruling class may have the upper hand due to historic and geographic events that enabled their military success.

Europeans and Arabs spread their rule across the globe by the sword and conquest due to factors that had nothing to do with intellectual or physical supremacy.

Therefore the concept of white supremacy is based on the perpetuation of violence to achieve hegemony.