Men and Masking

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I remember it, hehe.
I appreicated your caring nature, you didn't insist on a thing after I gave my opinion and decision on. Because I tend to be frightened and not like being convinced because I know myself and how others might be able to help me or not, I feel comfortable around people that treat me like you did. Everybody needs that I think.

I wonder if C-PTSD fits better? Would not surprise me in the least if it fit neatly but Kerns doenst know about it.

I appreciate it. Like most of us I'm constantly unsure of if I'm conducting myself properly so praise like this is almost overstimulating.

I would have expected PTSD to be over-represented among folks with ASD, both because of higher sensitivities in a lot of people but also that we're probably more likely to be under more scrutiny looking for such concerns.

How many kids with ASD actually make it to adulthood without acquiring significant emotional trauma from their experiences?
I doubt it's a higher rate than the NT cohort.

They don't refer to CPTSD because it isn't officially differentiated from PTSD in the DSM.

I agree though, CPTSD is more common for autistics.

I liked this summary, except that not all CPTSD begins in childhood.

Might they essentially be on a spectrum?

If the PTSD is more like a bunch of PTSDs stacked on top of each other and interlaced they'll be 'complex'. Some people might only have one or a few and others have so many that they'd be almost impossible to untangle from each other.

But that's only my guess as to how that would have to work.

CPTSD isn't exactly a bunch of acute PTSDs stacked on each other.

It's a long-term traumatic situation that the person can't escape.

It damages our self-concept and the way we view our place in the world.

We never feel safe, and our interpersonal relationships suffer as a result.

When it's happening it does feel like a lot of acute PTSDs, but acute PTSDs don't usually affect a person's self-image.

I believe recent research into neuroplasticity, shows that peoples wiring is flexible well into adulthood, indicating in my mind atleast, cptsd can be 'rolled back' so to speak, of course the amount of trauma a person has sustained , and the severity, varies from individual to individual.

If i sound like an optimist, it's because personally i believe i have undone a bunch of trauma in my own case. Of course it's hard to unwind that stuff. It does become part of your personality.

It does seem that a bunch of traumatic events that go unresolved would end up having deeper impacts because of how they'd slowly convince one that they're normal and likely deserving of it. It seems as though it would also have layers because there would both be acutely traumatic events but also ongoing circumstances that would both be harmful on their own but also would serve to multiply the harm of those acute events.

I'd anticipate the chronic nature would be what causes the damages to go deeper compared to other PTSD.

Also, as much as I'm thinking/understanding in statements I'm still trying to ask, not tell. I trust you know more than I do on this, since all I have to go by is what I understand of my own experiences.

Sorry FXE, I was in a rush when I wrote that.

You didn't say anything wrong. In essence CPTSD is "a lot of traumas" over a long period of time, it's just that the end result is different. In acute trauma we develop fear. In CPTSD we develop a damaged self-concept which affects our ability to connect with other people. CPTSD causes people to feel shame, self-loathing, responsibility for what happened, and distrust of other people in case it might happen again. They both matter and they're both relevant even to ASD.

I know people who are diagnosed with both types, for different reasons. They might have acute PTSD from witnessing a crime or some other traumatic experience, and they might also have CPTSD from long-term interpersonal abuse which causes them to feel shame and hypervigilence toward the world at large. These people become emotionally guarded and worried. It becomes part of their brain wiring and it can't really be undone.

You're 100% right that CPTSD convinces people it's their fault because it becomes normalised. The guilt and shame chip away at us until we don't know right from wrong in how to view ourselves.

It's all really sad. I can see that people on the spectrum stand a good chance of developing CPTSD just from their daily experiences feeling shunned and different in an NT society. Overt bullying would of course, make that even more pronounced.

I experience all life as trauma. That doesn't mean that I'm unhappy; actually, I'm quite content. It probably helps that I don't know what I'm missing. Trauma began for me so early in life that it is all I've known and so, I did that very human thing we do; I adapted. The tip-off which led me to arrive at the conclusion that I experience all life as trauma is that the sights, sounds, smells, etc., from a traumatic event that we recall with crystal clarity when triggered - I experience all events in my life like that.

I stopped by Walmart yesterday to pick up a couple items before returning home. I didn't think anything of it, it was just a normal trip. I picked up banana's, coffee, pineapple, cheese, tortilla's, a roll of paper towels, some dish soap and a Christmas card. The cost was $36.20. I can tell you what the license numbers were on the cars on either side of where I parked. One was a Lexus, the other was a Buick. There were fourteen parties in the checkout line in front of me and if I close my eyes and scroll back I can give you a rough description of every one of them. Approximate height, weight, age, race, hair color, and pretty much what they were wearing - i.e., the couple in front of me was right about 30 years old, of Mexican decent. He wore a flannel shirt and sweatpants, she wore a heavy coat and jeans. I didn't plan on trying to recall that info until I saw the direction of the thread just now - but ask me for this information a month from now and I'll still remember it. It's just how I go through life.

I was brought to the hospital three times before I was a year old with no pulse. They were able to revive me each time and then they gave me right back to my mom who is the one who caused the issue. So it started pretty young. Sexual abuse starting in infancy, picked up a new abuser at 4 years old, two more at 13 years old. The bullying when I arrived at school was relentless and I feared for my life every day. One day of that leaves a mark in your mind. Every Monday through Friday for ten years leaves a mark on your soul. Graduated early and got the heck out of Dodge by joining the military. I spent from 17 years old to 20, in a total of six combat arena's. Surviving my first twenty years was a miracle - I think trying to untangle and recover from all the various traumas is asking for a bit much. I'll just settle for not adding any new ones.

ABA as it is currently done is likely a big source of CPSD,

wow had a quick look and that is one hot topic. PTSD is being mentioned though, I guess as C does not exist for DSMies.

Eh, I guess I'll take a stab at this despite the fact that I'm really more NLD than anything else. Don't have anything better to do tonight with the current rise in COVID cases.

Are you diagnosed / self-diagnosed, and at what age? The original Asperger's diagnosis was at age 8 I would like to say? Can't remember exactly when.
Did you have difficulty finding a diagnostician as an adult? I was re-examined as an adult, and the psychologist could not determine conclusively that I did or did not have autism. The answer I was given was "you have many traits of NLD, but due to your past ASD diagnosis I can't accurately say whether you have NLD or ASD." I wasn't willing to pay more to distinguish between the two as I strongly think that NLD is a better descriptor in my case.
Were you taken seriously by your GP, your family and friends, etc? What should I say? Asperger's? Autism Spectrum Disorder, level unknown? Nonverbal Learning Disability? All of these do fit, but none of them are quite right.
If you weren't diagnosed in school, what challenges did you face trying to fit in? I live in the middle of nowhere. I was educated at home.
If you were diagnosed in school, or you went to special ed., how did that affect your social confidence? N/A see above.
How did your autistic traits affect your relationships or your self-concept? Not sure. Some people really like them, some don't care, others can't stand them. It really varies greatly from person to person.
Did you feel pressure to hide your autistic traits? (sensory issues, special interests, etc)? I really don't have many sensory challenges at all these days, and there are a wide variety of things I am interested in. Are they special interests or just plain old interests?
Did you feel pressure to hide your emotions or fake them? I don't fake them -- more like limit their intensity. Isn't that true for all men however?
Did you play sports or get ridiculed if you didn't play sports? (male stereotyes?) I don't like sports. Don't play 'em, don't watch 'em.
Do you feel that society judged / will judge you for not conforming with NT boys / men? Whether my personality appeals or repels other dudes I can't say with confidence, but for years now, I have found that it does seem to appeal a lot to women. I don't go out on dates, yet over the past five years, at least four women made it clear that they have romantic interests in me. Unfortunately for them, I completely lack interest in dating and romance, and all of them ended up heartbroken.
Do you feel like you wore a "mask" socially, or tried to fake it? I don't think I fake things.
How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos? Well, I obviously don't agree with this. I just don't think about it.
Did you ever feel like you'd be called an INCEL if you wanted to date or have sex? What's this? Never heard of it.
Were you ever worried to tell a partner that you were autistic, or thought you were autistic? Partners are highly overrated, so I won't answer this.
Do you feel society / women have unfair expectations about your career or your income / skills? I have no idea.
Is your mental health taken seriously, overall? I don't have any diagnosable mental health conditions, but I guess the answer to that would be yes if I did?
Do you feel like autistic men's voices are heard in the media? I guess? I don't pay much attention on that front. It does appear that most videos and blogs are made by women, but that's not a problem to me.

Why is that, if I may ask? I hate CBT myself. It's like a very superficial form of Stoicism, which I do like.

I can definitely relate to this, having to go into the working world each day, no one pretty much no one else is like you. People constantly thinking you're shy or talking to you like a kid, because they don't understand what you're saying.

- Are you diagnosed / self-diagnosed, and at what age? Self, age 32 (with lots of questioning since then).

- Did you have difficulty finding a diagnostician as an adult? Yes. They don't care. They think you just have low self-esteem and if you really struggled, the world of lay people would have noticed and helped you. They don't care that your family made fun of these traits, either. You're either a person or a diagnosis, in their eyes. Also, it doesn't occur to many of them that even if you're not on the Spectrum, as you suspect, that you're still struggling, which is why you're seeking help in the first place. Seems like if you don't ask for help, they say you're not assertive enough; if you do seek help, they will correct you on what you think and feel.

- Were you taken seriously by your GP, your family and friends, etc? I've told few people, because most have no idea what it means. And trying to describe sensory issues/experience just means you get a blank stare. I never thought I was an alien, like many people on the Spectrum, but always felt other people were. Or they were childlike and didn't really understand life. Better to just secretly go on that way, I guess. Most live in the illusion of their self-image, and don't want to understand anything else.

- If you weren't diagnosed in school, what challenges did you face trying to fit in? I hung out with other outcasts, but no one really like me. With them, the hard part was I have far less social needs. I could spend time with a friend for 3 hours each month and be happy. Also they never wanted to plan, which was really annoying. I never understood my anger at that, or chewing, or other things which I knew weren't wrong. At times, this created self-loathing. Most peers ignored or made fun me. I had one really great friend, scholarly and open-minded. That kept me sane.

I would also say no one did much when they did notice anything. In elementary school, all of my report cards have the comment, "Does not interact with other students." Yet, no teacher thought this might be important, or part of deeper issues/struggles/etc.

- If you were diagnosed in school, or you went to special ed., how did that affect your social confidence? N/A.

- How did your autistic traits affect your relationships or your self-concept? Most of what's different about me, I love. But without a context for these differences, sometimes I disliked myself. Also, I always saw these traits as being like my dad, who I didn't like, so would try to fix some. But I don't feel that way anymore.

It's also hard being around people who expect you to be like them, unknowingly holding you up to an unfit standard. They also think they can laugh at your differences, but if you laugh at theirs then this is rude.

Being misunderstood is the worst. When you joke, they think you're serious, and when you're serious they think you're joking, basically. It's very frustrating. Every conversation feels like a battle. Also, if you avoid eye contact, they think you're done talking, so you have to force yourself to do something painful, just to get a basic idea out. Very exhausting. You try to find other ways to be heard, but having to always listen and never be listened to can really weaken you.

Also, people not understanding why you're so quiet or withdrawn. They always think nothing bothers me and that I don't experience anger or stress. Most days I feel I'm being assaulted by noise, light, or interaction. I go through a hell they'll never experience. It's like being raped every day, having your boundaries violated while you put on a fake smile. And they just think you're meek, goofy, and weird.

It has made relationships very hard, because people don't understand. And they get fed up with your needs, not realizing how difficult theirs can be for you. I've also been with some terrible people, but I think I won't make anyone happy, and they won't really make me happy either. Not such a big deal in the end. I think bad relationships cured me of the desire to partner

- Did you feel pressure to hide your autistic traits? (sensory issues, special interests, etc)? You have to sometimes, at least if you want to keep a job. Or get one. Since I work with disabled people, my employer is probably a little more open-minded than others. Of course, if you're good at something, you can get away with being eccentric, too. At least to a point. But, there is always a fear of saying the wrong thing.

- Did you feel pressure to hide your emotions or fake them? Not hide, necessarily. I'm usually not so expressive. Though, people are shocked if I'm angry, or sometimes mock me if I'm excited. This is very insulting. Usually I have to fake them, especially for the sake of getting along with coworkers.

- Did you play sports or get ridiculed if you didn't play sports? (male stereotyes?) I hate sports. My family always pushed me to do them, to be normal and less clumsy. I just wanted to run around. I never thought competition had much value.

- Do you feel that society judged / will judge you for not conforming with NT boys / men? Probably. But, they'll judge you for anything. And now masculinity is so under fire it doesn't matter as much as in my teenage years. What's more annoying is people thinking I need to be loud.

- Do you feel like you wore a "mask" socially, or tried to fake it? . Every. F******. Day. I used to think the difficult traits were ones I could get rid of, or were part of an anxiety or emotional problem. But, of course, that made it worse over the years. I'm learning to take off the mask, and feel like I did years ago. The difficulty is if I'm myself, people think I'm in a shell. When I put on the mask (or shell), then they think I'm being myself.

- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos? Frustrating. That's the power of labels, unfortunately. If an NT drives a car into a crowd, no one worries all NTs will do this. The larger problem, I think, is a diagnosis must be fairly specific and rigid. That makes sense for cancer or the cold. For Autisim/Asperger's it's more problematic, because now a whole person is being squeezed into a label.

- Did you ever feel like you'd be called an INCEL if you wanted to date or have sex? No. But, probably because I've had relationships with some abusive people, so most people in my life would understand a need for singledom. If I never dated, then yes. It's a shame. I remember when INCELs were just as much women.

- Were you ever worried to tell a partner that you were autistic, or thought you were autistic? No. The problem is a refusal of others to understand when I do want to open up. And few will go past their preconceived notions.

- Do you feel society / women have unfair expectations about your career or your income / skills? Never really cared about this. I was never into the typical woman.

- Is your mental health taken seriously, overall? I think people would have to acknowledge that I actually have emotions first. Most people think I'm here to deal with their baggage.

- Do you feel like autistic men's voices are heard in the media? The media hears pretty people and loud people. And, more and more, is for people who don't seem to read or care about opposing viewpoints.