04 Oct 2021, 8:12 am
04 Oct 2021, 5:16 pm
05 Oct 2021, 3:16 am
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't deal too much in "formal logic" and syllogisms and stuff like that. All this scholastic stuff has its place----but it's not a panacea by any means. There are "faults" even when the precepts of "logic" are fully adhered to.
Neither do I.
But there is ground level, practical reasoning.
kraftiekortie wrote:
I deal with practicalities.
About 97% of the hospitalized patients in NY State (which is fortunate in not being severely overburdened like places such as Texas) are UN-vaccinated.
The vaccinated might, or might not, have less of a "viral load" than the unvaccinated. But, at least, they have antibodies which offer at least some protection against someone getting pneumonia as a complication of simple COVID.
And, many times, more virulence (severity) in one person equals more virulence in another person.
I just hung out with somebody who had a rather severe reaction to his second Moderna shot. But this was because he has a pre-existing condition affecting the stomach. He developed digestive symptoms that lasted 1.5 weeks.
I've known quite a few people who got vaccinated. He was the only one who had symptoms for more than 2 days. Most people I know only had pain at the injection site, and maybe some slight flu-like symptoms for less than a day.
I wish the vaccines offered more protection against acquiring COVID. I wish they were better, over all. But taking the vaccine, logically and otherwise, is much more to everyone's advantage than not taking the vaccine.
About 97% of the hospitalized patients in NY State (which is fortunate in not being severely overburdened like places such as Texas) are UN-vaccinated.
The vaccinated might, or might not, have less of a "viral load" than the unvaccinated. But, at least, they have antibodies which offer at least some protection against someone getting pneumonia as a complication of simple COVID.
And, many times, more virulence (severity) in one person equals more virulence in another person.
I just hung out with somebody who had a rather severe reaction to his second Moderna shot. But this was because he has a pre-existing condition affecting the stomach. He developed digestive symptoms that lasted 1.5 weeks.
I've known quite a few people who got vaccinated. He was the only one who had symptoms for more than 2 days. Most people I know only had pain at the injection site, and maybe some slight flu-like symptoms for less than a day.
I wish the vaccines offered more protection against acquiring COVID. I wish they were better, over all. But taking the vaccine, logically and otherwise, is much more to everyone's advantage than not taking the vaccine.
To be clear, I haven't a firm opinion about what is better/right.
Vaccinated or unvaccinated.
This is a work in progress for me, tossing ideas around.
Some people are more in danger than others.
Most who die are elderly and/or have comorbidity.
Getting vaccinated was the right thing to do...for me.
If I were 30 years younger and fit healthwise, there wouldn't be the urgency that there is now.
05 Oct 2021, 3:20 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. People rejecting the Covid vaccination are primarily doing it out of the right's political indoctrination, and the notion that science must bend to political ideology.
I would much rather be following the herd and get vaccinated rather than take horse dewormer, which has actually killed many of the feeble minded.
There are feeble-minded on both sides.
The biggest problem seems to boil down to overwhelming the health system.
*That* is the real issue, I believe.
BTW, I received my certificate for being fully vaccinated, yesterday.
"My life, my choice."
Good for you getting shot... I mean vaccinated.
I am a rational person.
I am not a spring chicken and have diabetes.
It is a no brainer for me to get vaccinated.
If I were 15, not so much.
05 Oct 2021, 7:51 am
05 Oct 2021, 6:02 pm
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Its why I never blindly trust the "experts"
One can find an expert to say anything and the powers that be are way too eager to get 100% participation in a vaccine with no long therm studies.
One can find an expert to say anything and the powers that be are way too eager to get 100% participation in a vaccine with no long therm studies.
Anyone who blindly accepts what so-called "experts" say in a political context, is a fool, imo.
(Refer to Tim Flannery, fauci, and daszak.)
Never give up your cognitive freedoms.
05 Oct 2021, 7:16 pm
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
05 Oct 2021, 8:39 pm
06 Oct 2021, 6:51 am
06 Oct 2021, 7:53 am
06 Oct 2021, 3:20 pm
06 Oct 2021, 5:00 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Vaccination just protects you from the virus. It doesn't change how the virus travels. Even vaccinated people will encounter, carry and spread the virus.
In the same exposure, the vaccinated are less likely to end up carrying any load at all, and when they do it is for a shorter time. All told I believe the vaccinated are only 25% as likely to carry or transmit than the un-vaccinated. Its a significant difference.
That makes no sense.
How does the "vaccine" change the way the virus behaves? Real vaccines protect the vaccinated against the disease not the unvaccinated.
Viruses have to feel they have a willing host to take hold and replicate. The vaccine interferes with that, but not in all people all the time. That's about the end of my understanding of it.
The data is what the data is, however.
Its why I never blindly trust the "experts"
One can find an expert to say anything and the powers that be are way too eager to get 100% participation in a vaccine with no long therm studies.
But the point is, experts in various fields know what they're talking about.
I accept the word of astrophysicists about black holes, because they know better than I do.
I accept the word of anthropologists concerning evolution, because that's their field of expertise.
I accept the word of historians about slavery being the central cause of the Civil War, as they know what they're talking about.
And I accept the word of virologists concerning the safety and truth about the Covid vaccine, as that's the discipline they've dedicated their lives to.
I think you are missing the point.
Your premise: All "Experts" have integrity.
Clearly, this is a nonsense to anyone not born yesterday.
Refer to Flannery, fauci and daszak.
The reality: Political interference and self-interest can and does corrupt the Truth to further a political or personal narrative.
Example: The origins of the coronavirus.
I defy you to find fault with my reasoning, here, but please, leave any hyperpartisanship at the door.
06 Oct 2021, 5:07 pm
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Vaccination just protects you from the virus. It doesn't change how the virus travels. Even vaccinated people will encounter, carry and spread the virus.
In the same exposure, the vaccinated are less likely to end up carrying any load at all, and when they do it is for a shorter time. All told I believe the vaccinated are only 25% as likely to carry or transmit than the un-vaccinated. Its a significant difference.
That makes no sense.
How does the "vaccine" change the way the virus behaves? Real vaccines protect the vaccinated against the disease not the unvaccinated.
Viruses have to feel they have a willing host to take hold and replicate. The vaccine interferes with that, but not in all people all the time. That's about the end of my understanding of it.
The data is what the data is, however.
Its why I never blindly trust the "experts"
One can find an expert to say anything and the powers that be are way too eager to get 100% participation in a vaccine with no long therm studies.
True, which is why I look for the general consensus among experts, as well as reading their different rationals. And then I check in with someone I know in the field.
The general consensus among the experts is pretty clear: we need people to get the vaccine if we want to have any hope of mitigating this pandemic.
Experts tend to agree with whoever is paying them, so follow the money.
Indeed, and there are many who are not willing to voice their opposition because of the misrepresentation/character-assassination/discreditation campaigns that so often follow any dissent of "The Offical Line".
Remember, and never forget, it was politics that changed our lives "forever" through the pandemic.
Obscenity...
Atrocity...
And politics...
06 Oct 2021, 5:14 pm
naturalplastic wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Vaccination just protects you from the virus. It doesn't change how the virus travels. Even vaccinated people will encounter, carry and spread the virus.
In the same exposure, the vaccinated are less likely to end up carrying any load at all, and when they do it is for a shorter time. All told I believe the vaccinated are only 25% as likely to carry or transmit than the un-vaccinated. Its a significant difference.
That makes no sense.
How does the "vaccine" change the way the virus behaves? Real vaccines protect the vaccinated against the disease not the unvaccinated.
Because you have the vaccine you have antibodies that drive off the virus. So the virus cant feed off of you and replicate inside you to spread to others. Simple as that.
What part of that "does not make sense"?
All of it.
Vaccinated people *do* spread the virus.
The point that informed people are making is that it *reduces* the degree of infecting others, and lessens the chances of the virus mutating.
06 Oct 2021, 5:28 pm
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
06 Oct 2021, 8:04 pm
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Vaccination just protects you from the virus. It doesn't change how the virus travels. Even vaccinated people will encounter, carry and spread the virus.
In the same exposure, the vaccinated are less likely to end up carrying any load at all, and when they do it is for a shorter time. All told I believe the vaccinated are only 25% as likely to carry or transmit than the un-vaccinated. Its a significant difference.
That makes no sense.
How does the "vaccine" change the way the virus behaves? Real vaccines protect the vaccinated against the disease not the unvaccinated.
Viruses have to feel they have a willing host to take hold and replicate. The vaccine interferes with that, but not in all people all the time. That's about the end of my understanding of it.
The data is what the data is, however.
Its why I never blindly trust the "experts"
One can find an expert to say anything and the powers that be are way too eager to get 100% participation in a vaccine with no long therm studies.
But the point is, experts in various fields know what they're talking about.
I accept the word of astrophysicists about black holes, because they know better than I do.
I accept the word of anthropologists concerning evolution, because that's their field of expertise.
I accept the word of historians about slavery being the central cause of the Civil War, as they know what they're talking about.
And I accept the word of virologists concerning the safety and truth about the Covid vaccine, as that's the discipline they've dedicated their lives to.
I think you are missing the point.
Your premise: All "Experts" have integrity.
Clearly, this is a nonsense to anyone not born yesterday.
Refer to Flannery, fauci and daszak.
The reality: Political interference and self-interest can and does corrupt the Truth to further a political or personal narrative.
Example: The origins of the coronavirus.
I defy you to find fault with my reasoning, here, but please, leave any hyperpartisanship at the door.
Sure, not all experts have integrity. So called scientists working for big polluters say their corporate masters aren't endangering the environment, and thus all of us. Those puppets of big business are clearly being payed.
But it's equally wrong to say that all experts are on the take, and say only what those who pay them to say. In fact, most are trustworthy.
Just because you disagree with an expert hardly means all of reality has to be altered to support your opinion.
Covid's origins are still up in the air. Even if Fauci is wrong about it, I'm still going to trust him when it comes to vaccinations and safety measures.
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