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Misslizard
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28 Jul 2021, 7:14 pm

The red pills had a festival in Montana.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/helenair.c ... b.amp.html


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Mr Reynholm
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28 Jul 2021, 7:44 pm

This is Gas lighting at an expert level.



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28 Jul 2021, 10:11 pm

It would be interesting to know what facts this is based upon, rather than opinions of the creator of the video (I don't have time at present to watch a 50+ minute video), and how they differ from past studies:

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WHO is happier about life — liberals or conservatives? The answer might seem straightforward. After all, there is an entire academic literature in the social sciences dedicated to showing conservatives as naturally authoritarian, dogmatic, intolerant of ambiguity, fearful of threat and loss, low in self-esteem and uncomfortable with complex modes of thinking. And it was the candidate Barack Obama in 2008 who infamously labeled blue-collar voters “bitter,” as they “cling to guns or religion.” Obviously, liberals must be happier, right?

Wrong. Scholars on both the left and right have studied this question extensively, and have reached a consensus that it is conservatives who possess the happiness edge. Many data sets show this. For example, the Pew Research Center in 2006 reported that conservative Republicans were 68 percent more likely than liberal Democrats to say they were “very happy” about their lives. This pattern has persisted for decades. The question isn’t whether this is true, but why.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/conservatives-are-happier-and-extremists-are-happiest-of-all.html [1]

An interesting section of the article which may explain why the "left" expect the "right" to be unhappy (and vice-versa):
Quote:
So conservatives are ignorant, and ignorance is bliss, right? Not so fast, according to a study from the University of Florida psychologists Barry Schlenker and John Chambers and the University of Toronto psychologist Bonnie Le in the Journal of Research in Personality. These scholars note that liberals define fairness and an improved society in terms of greater economic equality. Liberals then condemn the happiness of conservatives, because conservatives are relatively untroubled by a problem that, it turns out, their political counterparts defined.

Imagine the opposite. Say liberals were the happy ones. Conservatives might charge that it is only because liberals are unperturbed by the social welfare state’s monstrous threat to economic liberty. Liberals would justifiably dismiss this argument as solipsistic and silly.


Summed up: each side bases "happiness" (along with the expectation\recognition of it) as being based around their own side's beliefs (rather than considering the views\beliefs of those they are judging), and so the more partisan a person is, the less likely they wil recognise (or understand) happiness as defined by a person on the other end of the political spectrum.

In theory, the least "happy" would be those who constantly attack the members of the other side, as it suggests they are potentially either jealous of the happiness they see on that side (which they personally lack on their own side), or that they are unable to demonstrate this happiness those on their side have (suggesting they do not personally feel this) in a way that would encourage their "opponents" to be attracted to it over the "happiness" which they would have within their current beliefs, and so are forced to resort to attacking and harranguing them (either for being "happy" when the attacker is not, or to inflict sufficient "unhappiness" through the attacks that the person may eventually "change sides" through the imposition of this "unhappiness" being inflicted upon them, in order to have it cease).

[1] Hopefully this source is palatable to those who have an intolerance to sources\information originating outside their own political bubble (attacking the messenger because they dislike the message).


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funeralxempire
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28 Jul 2021, 10:49 pm

Brictoria wrote:
It would be interesting to know what facts this is based upon, rather than opinions of the creator of the video (I don't have time at present to watch a 50+ minute video), and how they differ from past studies


You're presenting basically the same stuff as Mikah did, this video is largely focused on younger MGTOW/incel/red pill types. It isn't as relevant for men of your generation (or Mr. Reynholm's) although that's not to say that these types don't exist within that cohort as well.

The video is largely his observations about a bloc of largely right leaning men and how certain mindsets they embrace leave them emotionally stunted and unable to participate in relationships, leading to the emergence of toxic communities like MGTOW, incels, red pill, etc.


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IsabellaLinton
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28 Jul 2021, 11:04 pm

What is MGTOW, fxe?



funeralxempire
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28 Jul 2021, 11:40 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


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cyberdad
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28 Jul 2021, 11:55 pm

Incels and MGTOW seem to inexorably drift into the orbit of far right groups.



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 12:00 am

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?



funeralxempire
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29 Jul 2021, 12:05 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?


You saw the Matrix, right?

In this context the red pill is the alternative reality the alt-right dwells in, blue pill is mundane reality everyone else dwells in. Incel folks also refer to a black pill which basically means abandoning all hope like some posters around here have expressed at times.

There are men like that from your guys generations, I've worked with them in the temp agency and dead-end jobs I've done. It's just that their toxic emotional state sometimes gets overlooked because of other stuff like the fact that they're drinking themselves to death or that they have domestic abuse charges.


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Bradleigh
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29 Jul 2021, 12:08 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I didn't write the Sears video that I posted, as you know -- and I wish it wasn't about left wing / right wing or conservative / liberal. I'm not American, I don't follow politics, I don't identify as left or right wing (I have no wings except my conscience), and I wasn't trying to support his political point of view. What I liked was the ending when he said that people were feeling pressured to conform to social scripts. I see that as relevant to the discussion of gender roles and individuality, and I wasn't trying to be political whatsoever. Either way, he's allowed his opinion about politics just like you and I are.

I appreciate your point of view, and all points of view. I've been victimised by men and by women, so my trust of either gender is conditional on people's behaviour rather than how masculine or feminine they may present, or how they promote a sociopolitical narrative. I think I'm having a rough go of it lately trying to understand people and society, or the way we rank each other in hierarchies by gender, class, etc instead of promoting a belief that diversity makes us equal.

My favourite Flintstones episode is the one where Fred and Wilma switch jobs for the day. She goes to the quarry, and he stays home to care for the house. They both learn that their work is equal, and that they were wrong about their misconceptions. Fred always learned from Wilma, but she learned just as much from him. It's interesting that you mentioned the show because it helped shape my views on equality, marriage, and cooperation.


It is cool that you got something out of the Flintstones, but I also imagine it did do a bit of gender essentialism to it. You still very much had the housewife character and working man character, with things coming a long way since then.

Not sure what to take from in regards to hierarchies of gender and class, especially whether something new, outside of more recent understandings that ideals of diversity were not always something that was effectively put into practice, due to a lot of people discriminating anyway, even subconsciously. But it really shouldn't be a bit deal if people make an oopsie without realising it, as long as they can understand where someone else is coming from.

I am personally fascinated by memes, with people looking them up, of something called "Pointlessly Gendered", which in the least can be rather funny at needing to change appearance to appeal to different genders, to showing some implicit biases that still exist. For instance, examples of child toys to resemble medical items, where the one aimed at boys will say "doctor" while the one for girls will say "nurse".


IsabellaLinton wrote:
Yes, but -

Who determines what's reasonable or acceptable?
Is the Karen's reasonableness judged in relation to her intellectual or emotional ability?
Why has "Karen" become a trope or internet meme for all women who are upset in public, without context?
Why do people think it's OK to judge others without knowing the full story?
Do people ever apologise for their prejudice and say "Sorry, you aren't a Karen after all" ?

I've had to deal with some extremely unprofessional people in the past few weeks, contractors, tradespeople, and incompetent tools in a number of settings. Some are men, and some are women. None of them are doing their jobs right but I'm autistic, I have ADHD, I'm selective mute, and I have a panic disorder. I expect things to go as planned or according to contracts. I've been frustrated to the point of nuclear meltdown by the lack of professionalism or integrity many of these people espouse. I've tried to be patient and to communicate clearly in an assertive way without losing my cool. I know I'm being judged for being upset and frustrated. I'm intimidated by the fact they could label me a Karen behind the scenes, and this makes it even harder for me to speak up and be honest. I feel stifled by the fact I could become a social meme, an office joke, or be judged by my diagnoses as unstable. I resent that. What are women supposed to do when there is a true grievance and it's not taken seriously?


You can't control what people are going to think of you. The best you can do is maybe have some self reflection of whether you might do the sort of thing that people make a meme of, and then figure if you are acting reasonably and do so confidently. If a contractor is acting unprofessionally, that can be a reasonable excuse to actually be angry, where you might be paying a lot of money for time they might be wasting. In my house we had a particular incident when doing some bathroom renovations recently where we were kind of weeks overdue, with one of the contractors had created a bit of a scene from not being paid for work he did and actually had been told that the guy who contracted him onto it was getting someone else to finish the work. There was reason to be a little angry that whatever happened was unprofessional, as long as we put it towards whatever parties were actually responsible for messing around, while also being understanding to not just yell at everyone.

Getting upset over someone maybe calling you a "Karen", is probably not going to do anything other than make them feel more vindicated in doing so in the first place. If you want to want to overcome it, the best thing you can do is to show that you have self awareness, as that I think is the number one complaint about this whole thing, people who have no understanding of self-awareness that they are yelling at someone who has no actual control over the situation. Just as this particular topic being about the type of men who hold up ideas of masculinity, with no self-awareness that it is making themselves unhappy, calling women "females" and shallow and wondering why they are not liked back.

In particular the people that often get the "Karen" label don't realise that if they treated workers as people that are just making their way through life also, they would likely get friendlier receptions of people that want to help them. If you keep that in mind, regardless of what other people might say, your not that.


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naturalplastic
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29 Jul 2021, 12:12 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?


The "red and blue pill" meme is from the movie the Matrix. "Drinking the Kool Aide" is from the real life tragedy of Jonestown in 1979- when an entire community of cult followers (900 people) were persuaded to commit suicide en masse by drinking poisoned Kool Aide from vats.

In the Matrix the main character is offered the choice of "taking the blue pill" and continuing to be a regular workaday person with regular beliefs, or "taking the red pill" and having your eyes opening to a bigger disturbing reality of (which in the movie is the rather contrived and unreal 'reality' of interdiminsional creaters coming at you).

"taking the blue pill" is buying into "the party line". Drinking the Kool Aide would be a more evil and dangerous version of the same thing (going along with what a cult leader wants).



IsabellaLinton
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29 Jul 2021, 12:14 am

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?


You saw the Matrix, right?

In this context the red pill is the alternative reality the alt-right dwells in, blue pill is mundane reality everyone else dwells in. Incel folks also refer to a black pill which basically means abandoning all hope like some posters around here have expressed at times.

There are men like that from your guys generations, I've worked with them in the temp agency and dead-end jobs I've done. It's just that their toxic emotional state sometimes gets overlooked because of other stuff like the fact that they're drinking themselves to death or that they have domestic abuse charges.


No, I haven't seen The Matrix. I don't really do movies, and especially not current / sci fi ones. When I say I'm not political or savvy about pop culture references I sincerely mean it.

Are these pills only for men?

Interesting that you see my generation that way. Sure there are drinkers, and yes there's some domestic abuse (m-f, f-m, m-m, f-f) in all generations. I don't know any men who I'd consider to have a toxic emotional state, though. Most are well-rounded, decent guys who are sincere in their affections. It's OK that we have different opinions though. I've known a lot of these men since they were kids and I know their character quite well beyond what a person would perceive in a business relationship.



naturalplastic
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29 Jul 2021, 12:17 am

The Matrix pills have nothing to do with gender. But the incels etc, just use that expression to justify living "in their seperate reality" as Funeral put it.



funeralxempire
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29 Jul 2021, 12:26 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
What is MGTOW, fxe?


Men Going Their Own Way


Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?


You saw the Matrix, right?

In this context the red pill is the alternative reality the alt-right dwells in, blue pill is mundane reality everyone else dwells in. Incel folks also refer to a black pill which basically means abandoning all hope like some posters around here have expressed at times.

There are men like that from your guys generations, I've worked with them in the temp agency and dead-end jobs I've done. It's just that their toxic emotional state sometimes gets overlooked because of other stuff like the fact that they're drinking themselves to death or that they have domestic abuse charges.


No, I haven't seen The Matrix. I don't really do movies, and especially not current / sci fi ones. When I say I'm not political or savvy about pop culture references I sincerely mean it.

Are these pills only for men?

Interesting that you see my generation that way. Sure there are drinkers, and yes there's some domestic abuse (m-f, f-m, m-m, f-f) in all generations. I don't know any men who I'd consider to have a toxic emotional state, though. Most are well-rounded, decent guys who are sincere in their affections. It's OK that we have different opinions though. I've known a lot of these men since they were kids and I know their character quite well beyond what a person would perceive in a business relationship.


In this context, yes the pills are for men. MGTOW and similar communities don't think of things outside of a male perspective, at the more extreme end they're male supremacists.

When I describe the Gen X and Boomer guys who seem like older versions of this trope they're certainly not the majority of men that age I've met but they do exist. Middle aged creeps who talk to 20 somethings about porn at work and gave me drugs for rides home and spent the whole time bitching about their past failed relationships. Most men aren't sad, bitter failures but certain mindsets make becoming one more likely.

It's not like incels are a new thing even if the term is new. The École Polytechnique massacre was the first incel terrorist attack and he was your generation.


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funeralxempire
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29 Jul 2021, 12:28 am

naturalplastic wrote:
The Matrix pills have nothing to do with gender. But the incels etc, just use that expression to justify living "in their seperate reality" as Funeral put it.


I'd say in this context they do. A woman can't become a MGTOW, so they can't be 'red-pilled' into that ideology even if they're a lonely lesbian incel.


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29 Jul 2021, 12:33 am

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Wow. Now I've heard everything. Thanks for that. I think I'd seen the acronym but I really had no idea what it meant.

So there seems to be mudslinging by men against women, and women against men, and it's a vicious circle.

I like that you pointed out this isn't as predominant in my generation or that of Bric and Mr Reynholm. For the most part men I've known are respectful, decent, hardworking people who don't get wrapped up in politics or sexism.

Dare I ask what the difference is between red and blue pills? I'm not even sure what either one is, but I think it's something along the lines of "don't drink the kool-aid" ?


You saw the Matrix, right?

In this context the red pill is the alternative reality the alt-right dwells in, blue pill is mundane reality everyone else dwells in. Incel folks also refer to a black pill which basically means abandoning all hope like some posters around here have expressed at times.

There are men like that from your guys generations, I've worked with them in the temp agency and dead-end jobs I've done. It's just that their toxic emotional state sometimes gets overlooked because of other stuff like the fact that they're drinking themselves to death or that they have domestic abuse charges.


It gets extra ironic when they act "red pilled" on topics like trans people, such as saying they are not valid, when the Matrix was actually created by a couple of trans women, and I am pretty have gone on record that the referential "red pill" is analogues to the one for female hormones.

The whole movement really is at an intersection of men who were convinced that they deserved things, like a girlfriend, and women that were taught that they deserve more than the misogyny that had been accepted as normal before like an object. MGTOW specifically convince themselves that they are breaking the expectations of their gender in getting a gal, rather than facing that their own attitude might have something to do with their lack of luck.


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