Anyone Keeping Up With the January 6th Riot?

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cyberdad
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18 Dec 2021, 9:04 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The panel hasn’t formally requested testimony from any of the GOP lawmakers yet but has continued to ask witnesses about Gosar, Biggs, Brooks and Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.), who helped push a strategy to use the Department of Justice to promote the fraud claims.


At some point isn't the US system of government supposed to react to this form of corruption?
If the human body is infected we take medicine or a vaccine to prevent future infection.

When the US system of government is infected with corruption shouldn't it respond in the same way?
What remedies are in place to prevent the reinfection of the Trump virus?



ASPartOfMe
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19 Dec 2021, 11:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The panel hasn’t formally requested testimony from any of the GOP lawmakers yet but has continued to ask witnesses about Gosar, Biggs, Brooks and Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.), who helped push a strategy to use the Department of Justice to promote the fraud claims.


At some point isn't the US system of government supposed to react to this form of corruption?
If the human body is infected we take medicine or a vaccine to prevent future infection.

When the US system of government is infected with corruption shouldn't it respond in the same way?
What remedies are in place to prevent the reinfection of the Trump virus?

Powerful drugs destroys viruses but they also temporarily or permanently destroy good things. To stop Trumpism the first amendment and possibly the second has to be altered or repealed. Then hate speech and symbols, speech that advocates for toxic beliefs could be banned as is the case in many democracies. To do that you need two thirds of congress to approve it and three fourths of the states to ratify it and in such a divided country that is not going to happen.

The system is a judgement call that the benefits of almost anything goes speech as nefarious people or people with misguided good intent deciding what is hate speech, good ideas being wrongly illegal etc. was worth the risk of almost anything goes speech propagating “virus”.

It is not the system, it is the people in which case changing the system would only delay the inevitable. All countries are eventually destroyed by their structural flaws, maybe now it is America’s turn. Maybe social media unleashes uncontainable viruses. Authoritarianism is eating away at plenty of democracies with hate speech bans. Arguably it is happening faster in America because of almost anything goes speech rights.


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cyberdad
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20 Dec 2021, 12:32 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
All countries are eventually destroyed by their structural flaws, maybe now it is America’s turn. Maybe social media unleashes uncontainable viruses. Authoritarianism is eating away at plenty of democracies with hate speech bans. Arguably it is happening faster in America because of almost anything goes speech rights.


It's interesting you mention social media. In 2005 the British labour party is thought to be the first political party to use social media to promote itself. Since then the Arab spring was thought to have been the first movement to have gone viral in 2010.

The use of social media in Brexit and Trump's 2016 victory can't be underestimated.



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21 Dec 2021, 1:22 am

Just saw a couple fb watch video titles saying the DOJ is considering charging trump.

Would be pretty fun to watch him meltdown over it.


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13 Jan 2022, 1:41 pm

More people arrested and charged - leader and members of the "Oath Keepers"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stewart- ... -ogWtyLtmc

Ironic that these people BELIEVE they were doing something to Defend the USA vs. attack it. Crazy.


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13 Jan 2022, 1:46 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
More people arrested and charged - leader and members of the "Oath Keepers"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stewart- ... -ogWtyLtmc

Ironic that these people BELIEVE they were doing something to Defend the USA vs. attack it. Crazy.
There is the idea that no one ever really chooses evil over good; but instead some will rationalize an evil act as something for "The Greater Good", and will believe this rationalization to the point of martyrdom.



goldfish21
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13 Jan 2022, 2:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
More people arrested and charged - leader and members of the "Oath Keepers"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stewart- ... -ogWtyLtmc

Ironic that these people BELIEVE they were doing something to Defend the USA vs. attack it. Crazy.
There is the idea that no one ever really chooses evil over good; but instead some will rationalize an evil act as something for "The Greater Good", and will believe this rationalization to the point of martyrdom.


I guess ?? it just seems so backwards that anyone could believe the words of the orange guy, who's a proven liar thousands of times over.. yet they believe his word that everyone else is lying and he's the only one telling the truth and therefore they have to commit acts of violence on his say so in order to "save," the USA. (while his goal seems to be to destroy it & reshape it in whatever twisted image he sees fit - mostly just whiter in population demographics.)


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13 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is the idea that no one ever really chooses evil over good; but instead some will rationalize an evil act as something for "The Greater Good", and will believe this rationalization to the point of martyrdom.
I guess ?? it just seems so backwards that anyone could believe the words of the orange guy, who's a proven liar thousands of times over.. yet they believe his word that everyone else is lying and he's the only one telling the truth and therefore they have to commit acts of violence on his say so in order to "save," the USA. (while his goal seems to be to destroy it & reshape it in whatever twisted image he sees fit - mostly just whiter in population demographics.)
That is part of the strategy behind "Make America Great Again".

THEY BELIEVE America was great (c.1957) when men were men, women had babies, whites were in charge, protestant Christians owned everything and dictated morality, and immigrants kept to themselves and held only menial jobs.

Now THEY SEE men being women, women in charge of their bodies, whites unemployed and begging for work, protestant Christians losing their homes and properties as well as their hold on morality, and immigrants taking all the best jobs.

Along comes the Orange Man, promising them that everything will be put back the way it was if only he (a wealthy white man who treats everyone else like crap) is put in charge permanently.  This is music to their ears.  And if things do not work out right away, it is not that the Orange Man is at fault for being an ignorant and narcissistic loser, but that the opposition is dishonest and will not play by the Orange Man's rules.

Never mind that the Orange Man is making up his own rules (and his own facts) as he goes along; THEY HAVE RATIONALIZED he is doing so for The Greater Good, even if it means staging a bloody coup to overthrow the Constitution and oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power.


Sad.

Sick.

Demented.


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cyberdad
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13 Jan 2022, 8:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
Along comes the Orange Man, promising them that everything will be put back the way it was if only he (a wealthy white man who treats everyone else like crap) is put in charge permanently.  This is music to their ears.  And if things do not work out right away, it is not that the Orange Man is at fault for being an ignorant and narcissistic loser, but that the opposition is dishonest and will not play by the Orange Man's rules.


Something else I have observed watching the most popular right wing podcasters (which seems to be also reflected among conservatives here in Australia) is a seething resentment against anything left wing or labelled as "woke".

This seems to be more acute/magnified in the US during and after the Obama administration. Seems to be a lot angry young men who want to lash out and left wing causes/groups are an easy target for their anger.



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14 Jan 2022, 2:29 am

goldfish21 wrote:
More people arrested and charged - leader and members of the "Oath Keepers"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stewart- ... -ogWtyLtmc

Ironic that these people BELIEVE they were doing something to Defend the USA vs. attack it. Crazy.


Incidentally, I've read that that same cyclops used to be a Rand Paul aid.


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14 Jan 2022, 9:23 am

cyberdad wrote:
Something else I have observed watching the most popular right wing podcasters (which seems to be also reflected among conservatives here in Australia) is a seething resentment against anything left wing or labelled as "woke".

This seems to be more acute/magnified in the US during and after the Obama administration. Seems to be a lot angry young men who want to lash out and left wing causes/groups are an easy target for their anger.
Any group that seeks equal treatment under the law for everyone seems to be a target for those who have traditionally enjoyed more lenient (or even preferential) treatment by the courts and law enforcement on account of their race.

"Wokeness" (as originally intended) seemed to be little more than increased awareness of institutionalized race-based inequalities under the law.  Yet, somehow, the idea of equality with people that one and one's ancestors have hated and subjugated for centuries is itself a hateful idea to some -- denying the alleged superiority of white males over everyone else is a virtual slap in the face to those white males who seem to need to feel superior to someone.

The phrase "When You Are Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression" seems applicable to those people.



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14 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm

I think this becomes an example of the "misattribution effect" where the aforementioned right wing "angry young men" use anything they label "woke" as the cause of their problems. For example, GOP voter Chad lost his job at the timber mill where the wood pulp was made into paper. So he takes out his anger at
1. environmental groups protesting logging of old growth forests
2. mexicans who come into his state cleaning floors and doing work for cash

It never occurs to Chad that his employer found it cheaper to buy cheaper grade of paper from overseas to maximise profits so decided to cut staff the timber mill,

A lot of the right wing podcasters create a 2D world where the bad guys are "woketivists" trying to destroy the fabric of a society which (supposedly) had its zenith back in the 1950s. I think deep down they know it's BS but its like somehow (to quote Fox Mulder) "they want to believe".



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14 Jan 2022, 10:47 pm

There was something deeply satisfying about watching (morally) corrupt politicians scurry away into the basement and complain about them having to stay in a crowded room and miss the scheduled free lunch with a lobbyist.

Everything else I don't really care for.


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14 Jan 2022, 10:55 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
There was something deeply satisfying about watching (morally) corrupt politicians scurry away into the basement and complain about them having to stay in a crowded room and miss the scheduled free lunch with a lobbyist.

Everything else I don't really care for.


Right?

Is it wrong that part of me is mad they weren't serious about it, that they wasted the opportunity on something so stupid? I mean, yes, intellectually I know that the fall of the US government would be a Very Bad Thing, that I really don't want to live in some Road Warrior world or even a low level conflict, but there's still something to be said for making those people afraid every now and again, reminding them that they truly do serve at our pleasure.


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14 Jan 2022, 11:10 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
There was something deeply satisfying about watching (morally) corrupt politicians scurry away into the basement and complain about them having to stay in a crowded room and miss the scheduled free lunch with a lobbyist.

Everything else I don't really care for.


Well, there was the whole thing about those politicians being in fear of their lives at the hands of a lynch mob, or that the will of the American people was going to be subverted in order to keep said lynch mob's orange messiah in power.


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15 Jan 2022, 8:20 am

Cheering on those who attacked the Capitol has to be among the lowest forms of depraved behavior, exceeded in depravity by only the attempted coup itself.


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