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Redd_Kross
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03 Aug 2021, 4:24 pm

QFT wrote:
The last two paragraphs of what you wrote do not fit at all with what you wrote before these two paragraphs.

Yes they do.

You are the one waffling on about money and pharma companies. Why, I have no idea. I'm in the UK where money doesn't come into it, and yet my cousin keeps battling with the same cyclical patterns of behaviour.

What I'm talking about there, is mental health conditions such as bipolar and schizophrenia tricking people into bouts of dangerous, over self-confidence. That often starts with "you don't need the meds, look how they dull your natural sparkle". And then everything escalates from there.

A bit like hypothermia tricking you into thinking you're too hot when actually you're freezing to death. Hypothermia victims are often found partially undressed. The mind plays tricks, we all know this. Hence Descartes' famous "I think therefore I am" statement - that's the only truth that's 100% reliable. If you're thinking, then in some capacity you must exist. Everything else is potentially false.

Doctors (and particularly specialists) are normally better at diagnosing patients with mental health issues than the patients are themselves. No surprises there. Firstly because that's what they've been trained for - it's literally their job - and secondly because those having issues may not have the background knowledge or clarity of thought to be able to understand their own problems clearly enough. Being able to step back from our own thoughts and analyse them isn't easy, even when we're thinking clearly. Let alone if certain parts of our own personality are actually doing their best to trip us up.

If you've had mixed advice from different specialists, that says to me your case is borderline. It doesn't necessarily mean ThErE's A cOnSpIrAcY and one bunch of Doctors are deliberately lying. Nonetheless you seem to have an agenda here and as a consequence you're giving potentially harmful advice. Have you ever tried any of the medications you were advised to take, long term? And if so, did you notice any improvement in your mood, stability, clarity of thought etc. over that time period? If not, were any attempts made to change the medication to something more suitable?

Because if you haven't been down this route then by definition you don't fully understand the ins and outs of it. And that's only for YOUR UNIQUE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, too. It may be that not taking the meds was appropriate for you, or it might not. If you've never tried them anyway, it's hard to tell. But regardless, what suits you doesn't necessarily suit everyone else, does it?



HeroOfHyrule
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03 Aug 2021, 4:43 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
What I'm talking about there, is mental health conditions such as bipolar and schizophrenia tricking people into bouts of dangerous, over self-confidence. That often starts with "you don't need the meds, look how they dull your natural sparkle". And then everything escalates from there...

...Nonetheless you seem to have an agenda here and as a consequence you're giving potentially harmful advice...

I heavily agree with this. I'm surprised this conversation has even been allowed to go on this long, it's incredibly harmful to tell someone you don't even personally know that their medication is "dulling" them, and that they should just stop taking it and any medication like it. I really hope OP doesn't take this seriously and do that, as this should really be a conversation between her and her doctor/whoever prescribed it, for her own wellbeing and safety.



Crystal1414
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03 Aug 2021, 11:50 pm

magz wrote:
Crystal1414 wrote:
magz wrote:
Try different meds. And maybe a different doctor.
I was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia and mismedicated for it. It made me numb and vulnerable but still horribly suffering - but my doc was so set up on it that when I reported drugs not helping, he prescribed more of them 8O
I had to talk to another doctor about my concerns and, when my depression and insomnia were adressed, I started functioning again. The schizophrenia diagnosis turned out completely wrong and with the help of the other doctor, different meds and a good therapist, I'm with you now.

What you describe seems a bit manic. Did you have depressive episodes, too? What psychotic symptoms do you have?

Anyway, even if in your case the diagnosis is right, maybe different meds would suit you better. It's a very individual thing.


I might ask for new meds. I feel really weird about medication though. That would suck to be misdiagnosed. I am glad that you started functioning again.

I guess it could be manic behaviour. I have a lot of depression. Im not feeling it now though. Im not feeling too good to be honest. My psychotic symptoms are severe paranoia that makes me really angry. I can't manage it sometimes. Its always a cycle of religious experiences, depression and then paranoia coursing through everything. I feel paranoia a lot. Its a part of me. I only call it paranoia because other people believe that I am paranoid. I actually hate that word. I feel like it dismisses what I feel.

Hmmm, so only other people call it paranoia?
How does this "paranoia" feel to you?

I had my social anxiety - fear of being constantly judged by other people and need to control my body language in public places because of it - misinterpreted for delusions of reference. It became even worse when I started being mismedicated because I could no longer control my body language - and people in public transport were actually staring at me, which caused anxiety... misinterpreted for paranoia and medicated more :/

Maybe you could try some mood stabilizers like lithium? Cycles of being high, low and anxious are typical for bipolar. Mood stabilizers slow down this swing and keep it near functioning equilibrium.


This "paranoia" feels like fear of people and feeling like everybody hates me. Some days I feel like there are these people who watch me and I can't see them but they can see me. I feel like I can feel what they think about me and I feel trapped. Then I feel like other people start staring at me because they know what's happening. Other days I feel like people know what Im thinking and that they are reacting to it. Recently I had feelings that my dreams were being erased from my memory because I was dreaming stuff that Im not supposed to dream about. I feel like I can't talk to people about it because they get too concerned.

That sucks that you were mismedicated for that. I feel like psychiatrists misinterpret things a lot, especially with me because I have communication issues and I can't always communicate how I feel and I mistake my emotions. I can't always recognize certain emotions that I feel. It causes a lot of frustration with people who help me in my life.

Im a bit scared of lithium to be honest. I have heard stuff about it. Im back on my medication today though. Im having a crash. I feel overwhelmed and sad. My parents were talking about the psych ward. So I decided to take my pill today.



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04 Aug 2021, 3:11 am

Redd_Kross wrote:
You are the one waffling on about money and pharma companies.


Did I? Give me a quote where exactly I said it.

You are basically assuming I said it because other people who hold my views have said it. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of just assuming I am rehashing the same thing verbatim.

Now, here is what I did say. It is natural for people to label as crazy something they don't understand. They don't have to be affiliated with big farma or with any conspiracy in order to do it. Its just natural. Think of how many NT-s ostracize aspies. Do they get paid by big farma or any other company to ostracize them? Nope. They ostracize them because thats their true opinion. And, as a fellow aspie, you agree with me that their opinion is wrong.

Well, if you follow me so far, what would happen if one of those people had a power to make the aspie in question take drugs. Would they utilize their power to enforce their negative opinion of an aspie? You bet. Now, if their opinion of an aspie is unfair to begin with, would their ability to prescribe drugs make the problem worse? Yup.

Okay, and finally: what if instead of misunderstanding an aspie, they misunderstand someone else who is different. How is it any better?



magz
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04 Aug 2021, 3:27 am

Blue_Star wrote:
My anti-depressants make me slower. I can feel the difference in my thinking speed. But I've also grown old enough to realize that without them I'm pretty useless. I'm willing to be a lil slower internally to not be a curled up sobbing ball that can't really live life.

I've had to grow past the "I feel btr so I'll stop them" thing. And I knew growing up that I'd likely end up with lifelong depression; it's genetic on one side back several generations. I've even had one of my drugs stop working entirely while taking it. I'm back on it many years later (not the only drug I'm on), but I still have to be aware that it could stop working again.

I'd rather be able to function in society than stay off my scripts and be weird, odd, scared, & non-functioning. I don't understand the desire to be more of oneself than be functional. Sometimes I feel very out of place here because of that decision.
To me, mental illness like depression doesn't feel like "myself". When I was religious, I suspected evil spirits - and I still think spirits are not that bad psychoanalytical model. The concept of good and evil spirits have helped people navigate mental problems for centuries, probably because it could be useful enough.
Sleep deprivation also isn't a part of my identity even if I struggled with it as long as my memory reaches.

Blue_Star wrote:
Insert my usual spiel that Seroquel (Quetiapine) should not be used off-label for sleeping or other things.
Why? I discussed it with my doc (MD in psychiatrics, the one who helped me get out of the misdiagnosis and become functional again), asking for possible alternatives and he said, everything similarily efficant is at least similarily problematic.
Quetiapine, unlike benzos, doesn't build immunity, so with lifelong insomnia, it turned out the better choice.


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magz
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04 Aug 2021, 3:49 am

Crystal1414 wrote:
This "paranoia" feels like fear of people and feeling like everybody hates me. Some days I feel like there are these people who watch me and I can't see them but they can see me. I feel like I can feel what they think about me and I feel trapped. Then I feel like other people start staring at me because they know what's happening. Other days I feel like people know what Im thinking and that they are reacting to it. Recently I had feelings that my dreams were being erased from my memory because I was dreaming stuff that Im not supposed to dream about. I feel like I can't talk to people about it because they get too concerned.
That does sound like paranoia :( I mean your anxiety crosses the limits of regular reality.
I understand difficulty talking about it - already with communication issues, describing things people never experienced is super hard, and they react weirdly, totally lost about what to do.

Tell me, were you raised with censoring emotions? Like, believing that being angry at your mother was morally wrong, stuff like that?

Crystal1414 wrote:
That sucks that you were mismedicated for that. I feel like psychiatrists misinterpret things a lot, especially with me because I have communication issues and I can't always communicate how I feel and I mistake my emotions. I can't always recognize certain emotions that I feel. It causes a lot of frustration with people who help me in my life.
I know it. A lot of my therapy was about learning to recognize and name my emotions.
Again - were you raised in a culture of censoring emotions?

Crystal1414 wrote:
Im a bit scared of lithium to be honest. I have heard stuff about it. Im back on my medication today though. Im having a crash. I feel overwhelmed and sad. My parents were talking about the psych ward. So I decided to take my pill today.
That's okay.
When a chance comes, try to discuss with your doc possibility of other meds with similar effect. Maybe you find some better fit.


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Redd_Kross
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04 Aug 2021, 4:05 pm

QFT wrote:
The last two paragraphs of what you wrote do not fit at all with what you wrote before these two paragraphs. For one thing, I don't know Crystal outside of this thread so there is no way I could "trick her into sending me money" even if I wanted to. Just because "some" people who suggest certain thing are there to scam you, it doesn't mean that "everyone" is, neither does it mean that said "certain thing" is a bad idea.

And I am not denying that scams happen. I personally been scammed back in 2010. I lost 10 thousand dollars on the scam. So I should know. But guess what: me being scammed did not involve "getting off the meds". I wasn't taking meds to begin with. What it involved instead was "me trying to establish independence from my overbearing mother". Which actually is a similar concept. People think badly of you, so they put some limitations on your life -- be it meds OR overbearing mother -- and then those limitations make you vulnerable and scammers are taking advantage of the vulnerable.

I have a better idea on how to avoid these situations. When someone asks you to send them money, buy some product, sign up for something, etc. then walk away. Until/unless any of those things are happening, you can assume that the person is sincere. I agree that "sincere" people can still be wrong. But how would you know whether they are right or wrong unless you give a thought to what they are saying? So the point is that you shouldn't dismiss them as "having an agenda" unless they ask you to sign up for some stuff. Thats all I am saying. And it worked for me ever since I learned my lesson on that scam back then.

And one more thing. In your last sentence you said "... and have never needed to take". Well, some doctors wouldn't agree that I never needed to take meds as some of them wanted me to take meds -- but I didn't listen to them. Of course, there were some other doctors that said I didn't need meds. In fact, 2/3 of the doctors said I don't need meds, and the other 1/3 said I needed them. I went with the ones that said I didn't need them (and would have done the same if the stats were different). That just goes to show that you shouldn't just automatically assume that needing or not needing meds is determined by what the doctor says.


All of the above is about money and scams and Doctors potentially tricking you.

Which has precisely NO relevance to what I posted.

It's just you rushing to assumptions and leaping back on a well-worn hobbyhorse.

Now saying "I didn't do that at all!" is laughable. Yes you did. It's right here.



Crystal1414
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04 Aug 2021, 6:44 pm

magz wrote:
Crystal1414 wrote:
This "paranoia" feels like fear of people and feeling like everybody hates me. Some days I feel like there are these people who watch me and I can't see them but they can see me. I feel like I can feel what they think about me and I feel trapped. Then I feel like other people start staring at me because they know what's happening. Other days I feel like people know what Im thinking and that they are reacting to it. Recently I had feelings that my dreams were being erased from my memory because I was dreaming stuff that Im not supposed to dream about. I feel like I can't talk to people about it because they get too concerned.
That does sound like paranoia :( I mean your anxiety crosses the limits of regular reality.
I understand difficulty talking about it - already with communication issues, describing things people never experienced is super hard, and they react weirdly, totally lost about what to do.

Tell me, were you raised with censoring emotions? Like, believing that being angry at your mother was morally wrong, stuff like that?

Crystal1414 wrote:
That sucks that you were mismedicated for that. I feel like psychiatrists misinterpret things a lot, especially with me because I have communication issues and I can't always communicate how I feel and I mistake my emotions. I can't always recognize certain emotions that I feel. It causes a lot of frustration with people who help me in my life.
I know it. A lot of my therapy was about learning to recognize and name my emotions.
Again - were you raised in a culture of censoring emotions?

Crystal1414 wrote:
Im a bit scared of lithium to be honest. I have heard stuff about it. Im back on my medication today though. Im having a crash. I feel overwhelmed and sad. My parents were talking about the psych ward. So I decided to take my pill today.
That's okay.
When a chance comes, try to discuss with your doc possibility of other meds with similar effect. Maybe you find some better fit.


Yeah. Its hard to deal with because I have been told Im "crazy" by people. Im not great at explaining it and then people tell me its not true. Then people feel worried because I talk about it too much.

I honestly do not remember if I had to censor my emotions. I know that I feel them intensely though and that they cause me to act out. Then I can't tell people why I feel the way I do. I used to have a lot of meltdowns as a child. I still do but they are less intense.

Im on Abilify currently. I think I will ask my doctor to change it. My doctor sometimes doesn't believe what I say though because I have a hard time answering their questions.



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04 Aug 2021, 9:26 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
QFT wrote:
The last two paragraphs of what you wrote do not fit at all with what you wrote before these two paragraphs. For one thing, I don't know Crystal outside of this thread so there is no way I could "trick her into sending me money" even if I wanted to. Just because "some" people who suggest certain thing are there to scam you, it doesn't mean that "everyone" is, neither does it mean that said "certain thing" is a bad idea.

And I am not denying that scams happen. I personally been scammed back in 2010. I lost 10 thousand dollars on the scam. So I should know. But guess what: me being scammed did not involve "getting off the meds". I wasn't taking meds to begin with. What it involved instead was "me trying to establish independence from my overbearing mother". Which actually is a similar concept. People think badly of you, so they put some limitations on your life -- be it meds OR overbearing mother -- and then those limitations make you vulnerable and scammers are taking advantage of the vulnerable.

I have a better idea on how to avoid these situations. When someone asks you to send them money, buy some product, sign up for something, etc. then walk away. Until/unless any of those things are happening, you can assume that the person is sincere. I agree that "sincere" people can still be wrong. But how would you know whether they are right or wrong unless you give a thought to what they are saying? So the point is that you shouldn't dismiss them as "having an agenda" unless they ask you to sign up for some stuff. Thats all I am saying. And it worked for me ever since I learned my lesson on that scam back then.

And one more thing. In your last sentence you said "... and have never needed to take". Well, some doctors wouldn't agree that I never needed to take meds as some of them wanted me to take meds -- but I didn't listen to them. Of course, there were some other doctors that said I didn't need meds. In fact, 2/3 of the doctors said I don't need meds, and the other 1/3 said I needed them. I went with the ones that said I didn't need them (and would have done the same if the stats were different). That just goes to show that you shouldn't just automatically assume that needing or not needing meds is determined by what the doctor says.


All of the above is about money and scams and Doctors potentially tricking you.

Which has precisely NO relevance to what I posted.

It's just you rushing to assumptions and leaping back on a well-worn hobbyhorse.

Now saying "I didn't do that at all!" is laughable. Yes you did. It's right here.


I talked about scams in an entirely different context. You mentioned that some people say NOT TO take meds in order to trick you and get your money. So I said I am not one of them. I wasn't talking about people thinking you should take meds wanting your money. I was only defending people that say not to take them from this accusation.

The person that scammed me whom I described in the above quote was not a doctor. He was a pastor, and the scam involved buying a land for church/orphanage. So it had nothing to do with doctors. The only connection between that and this conversation is because you said that you knew someone who was scammed when they went off their meds. So I tried to talk about the ways to avoid scams that don't require meds.

Also I didn't say doctors prescribe meds to get money. I said that people in general -- doctors or not -- are prone to making negative judgement. If the person making negative judgement is a doctor, they will prescribe meds. If that person is an employer, he will refuse to hire you. If that person is your neighror, he will refuse to talk to you, etc. When your neighbor refuses to talk to you, he isn't trying to get money by not talking to you. He is just being judgemental. Similarly when the doctor prescribes meds he is being judgemental too. All I am saying is don't take judgemental people's opinion as truth.



magz
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05 Aug 2021, 4:03 am

Crystal1414 wrote:
Yeah. Its hard to deal with because I have been told Im "crazy" by people. Im not great at explaining it and then people tell me its not true. Then people feel worried because I talk about it too much.
Been there :/ Once you're shoved into the "crazy" bin, it's really hard to be heard by other people.
But then you're alone with your real suffering :( The delusions may be - well - delusional, fake, but the suffering is very real.

Crystal1414 wrote:
I honestly do not remember if I had to censor my emotions. I know that I feel them intensely though and that they cause me to act out. Then I can't tell people why I feel the way I do. I used to have a lot of meltdowns as a child. I still do but they are less intense.
One of the things I learned during my psychology course was never to ask why someone feels something. Another thing was: emotions should never be judged, neither morally nor logically. Actions can be judged, not emotions.
Emotions are like bodily sensations: they happen and you feel them. Often the source can be seen (you kicked a locker and now your foot hurts) but when you're sick, you just feel pain and it's up to the doc to find out why.

I had lots and lots of meltdowns in my childhood and I could never tell why - so I was told I was "hysterical for no reason" and often got yelled at, which, obviously, made it a lot worse. So, I learned to supress my meltdowns, that was quite an (unhealthy) achievement, but the feeling that would trigger them was still there and I couldn't describe it even to mental health professionals: it was like being in a horrible pain but without the pain itself. And that was dismissed as "crazy" :(
Years later, I learned the word: sensory overload. It was real, it made sense, it wasn't craziness, just unusual sensitivity.

Anyway, you don't have to know why you feel things. Knowing what you feel is often enough.

Crystal1414 wrote:
Im on Abilify currently. I think I will ask my doctor to change it. My doctor sometimes doesn't believe what I say though because I have a hard time answering their questions.
Maybe write down your feelings about the meds before the meeting?


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