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Mayor of LA Signs Ordinance Criminalizing Homelessness

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Fnord
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30 Jul 2021, 4:40 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
... People would have a sense of pride again staying in a cute modern little house.
Or they will treat them like trashy, third-rate trailer parks...

Image

I don’t think that will happen in these.
It’s not a trailer park.
https://edenvillageusa.org/springfield-mo/about/faq/
They have rules.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news-l ... 2144197001
Mmm ... wellll ... maybe ... and maybe not ...

One is two years old and hasn’t happened yet.If you don’t clean up you get evicted.If you do drugs you go to rehab and they hold the home till you get back.Or you get evicted.Read the last part.You can’t even smoke in the homes and volunteer groups also help with maintenance.
That makes sense.  I was remembering my experiences making service calls in Cabrini Green Homes (the "Projects" on Chicago's north side) back in the 1980s.


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Misslizard
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30 Jul 2021, 4:44 pm

/\ They seem to have thought it over very well.Maybe learning from what didn’t work in the past.Some people don’t want to follow rules and just have to go.It’s for the good of the whole community.


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Fnord
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30 Jul 2021, 4:48 pm

Misslizard wrote:
/\ They seem to have thought it over very well.Maybe learning from what didn’t work in the past. Some people don’t want to follow rules and just have to go. It’s for the good of the whole community.
It may not be any actually "stifling" effect of living within The Rules -- some people seem to have an actual phobia of oversight and accountability.


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Misslizard
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30 Jul 2021, 5:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\ They seem to have thought it over very well.Maybe learning from what didn’t work in the past. Some people don’t want to follow rules and just have to go. It’s for the good of the whole community.
It may not be any actually "stifling" effect of living within The Rules -- some people seem to have an actual phobia of oversight and accountability.

Very true.
Sometimes bad habits win out.Last winter when we were below zero groups went out to try and help some of the homeless with shelter and most refused and stayed on their tents.They wanted to smoke, drink and possibly so drugs.Can’t so those things in the shelter.They preferred staying out in sub-zero weather.
For a few it was another reason entirely,
they wouldn’t go because their pet wasn’t allowed. :cry:


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diagnosedafter50
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30 Jul 2021, 5:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
Read the  Ordinance , boys; thoroughly, this time.  There is nothing in the ordinance that specifically makes homelessness illegal; there is only the stated declaration to keep its public rights-of-way clean and available for public use, and to protect the public health, safety, and access by City constituents.

People are is still free to be homeless; they are simply no longer allowed to exercise that freedom to occupy streets, sidewalks, alleys, doorways, parks, parking lots, recreational areas, overpasses, underpasses, freeway ramps, or rights-of-way for public utilities.

Homelessness itself is not always the fault of the homeless person, so it cannot -- and should not -- be a crime.  Trespassing, blocking traffic, and preventing free and easy access of public spaces to others (especially the handicapped) is and should be unlawful.

Where are they supposed to go?
What are they supposed to do?



Fnord
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31 Jul 2021, 4:56 pm

diagnosedafter50 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Read the  Ordinance , boys; thoroughly, this time.  There is nothing in the ordinance that specifically makes homelessness illegal; there is only the stated declaration to keep its public rights-of-way clean and available for public use, and to protect the public health, safety, and access by City constituents.

People are is still free to be homeless; they are simply no longer allowed to exercise that freedom to occupy streets, sidewalks, alleys, doorways, parks, parking lots, recreational areas, overpasses, underpasses, freeway ramps, or rights-of-way for public utilities.

Homelessness itself is not always the fault of the homeless person, so it cannot -- and should not -- be a crime.  Trespassing, blocking traffic, and preventing free and easy access of public spaces to others (especially the handicapped) is and should be unlawful.
Where are they supposed to go?  What are they supposed to do?
According to L.A.'s Homeless Services Authority, about 183 people have been moved off the boardwalk and nearly 165 people have been moved to interim housing. 

There are programs to house the homeless; but those programs also have rules and standards of behavior -- no drugs, no guns, no prostitution, no illegal activities of any kind -- which many homeless people seem to find intolerable.

As an aside, it is ironic that the same people who claim to advocate for the homeless never seem willing to house any "unhoused" people in their own homes -- they always complain about how the homeless have no place to stay, yet they never open up their own homes to the homeless.

Hypocrites.


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SocOfAutism
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02 Aug 2021, 8:15 am

It's probably a good thing I'm not in charge of problems like this.

If I had complete control over an area with a homeless problem, and had no personal accountability, I would alien abduct maybe 10 representative homeless persons and set them up in some kind of debriefing/detox situation with Dr. Drew. They couldn't leave, and they would be forced to get to the root of their problems to help me compile a dossier that I would give to different problem solving consultants. Then I would set about social and civil engineering to clean up the situation.

OH like Gandalf with the One Ring, I would be Terrible with my Goodness...



QuietThoughts
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02 Aug 2021, 8:36 am

SocOfAutism wrote:
It's probably a good thing I'm not in charge of problems like this.

If I had complete control over an area with a homeless problem, and had no personal accountability, I would alien abduct maybe 10 representative homeless persons and set them up in some kind of debriefing/detox situation with Dr. Drew. They couldn't leave, and they would be forced to get to the root of their problems to help me compile a dossier that I would give to different problem solving consultants. Then I would set about social and civil engineering to clean up the situation.

OH like Gandalf with the One Ring, I would be Terrible with my Goodness...

Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?



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02 Aug 2021, 8:44 am

QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.


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QuietThoughts
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02 Aug 2021, 9:14 am

Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.

Because not every inch of land has been provisioned for either a private individual, enterprise or the local Government, right? Your feeble-minded social construct doesn't make something normal. Nation state is destructive and you've been parasitising Earth's natural resources and squandering it on subsisting within a system that merely detracts from the overall well-being of our ecosystems since the day you were born.

Nice stereotypes by the way.



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02 Aug 2021, 9:28 am

QuietThoughts wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.
Because not every inch of land has been provisioned for either a private individual, enterprise or the local Government, right?  Your feeble-minded social construct doesn't make something normal.  Nation state is destructive and you've been parasitising Earth's natural resources and squandering it on subsisting within a system that merely detracts from the overall well-being of our ecosystems since the day you were born.  Nice stereotypes by the way.
No stereotyping involved.  I have been homeless, and I know what those people are really like because I experienced their attitudes and behaviors up close and personal.  Had I not stayed clean and sober, and hustled every honest job I could, I might have become just another shuffling zombie or street-corner evangelist preaching against government conspiracies.

I have also taken in people who would have otherwise been homeless to help them get back on their feet and on the way to being better citizens.  After about a half-dozen such failed endeavors, I say, "Never again".  Those people seem to have phobias against oversight and personal accountability.

But if YOU wish to advocate for the homeless, then YOU go right ahead and open up YOUR home to them.

You will soon regret it.


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QuietThoughts
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02 Aug 2021, 9:31 am

Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.
Because not every inch of land has been provisioned for either a private individual, enterprise or the local Government, right?  Your feeble-minded social construct doesn't make something normal.  Nation state is destructive and you've been parasitising Earth's natural resources and squandering it on subsisting within a system that merely detracts from the overall well-being of our ecosystems since the day you were born.  Nice stereotypes by the way.
No stereotyping involved.  I have been homeless, and I know what those people are really like because I experienced their attitudes and behaviors up close and personal.  Had I not stayed clean and sober, and hustled every honest job I could, I might have become just another shuffling zombie or street-corner evangelist preaching against government conspiracies.

I have also taken in people who would have otherwise been homeless to help them get back on their feet and on the way to being better citizens.  After about a half-dozen such failed endeavors, I say, "Never again".  Those people seem to have phobias against oversight and personal accountability.

Irrelevant.

Fnord wrote:
But if YOU wish to advocate for the homeless, then YOU go right ahead and open up YOUR home to them.

You will soon regret it.

Straw man.



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02 Aug 2021, 9:37 am

Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.


Same in cities around here. The pestering for money is unbelievable and some will relentlessly hound you and follow you until you give in.

I stopped handing money out now because I've nearly been mugged twice once they realise what pocket your wallet is in.

Never, ever help them under any circumstances if they look like regular drug users. They'll never change and won't think twice about selling all your furniture the second you let them into your home on a cold winter's night.

The issue I have with the homeless queue is that it isn't longer. For every one on the streets there is another trashing up a local authority house or Cuckooing another vulnerable persons house that they waited years for and taking their food, gas and electric. I've seen it many times before.



Last edited by Nades on 02 Aug 2021, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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02 Aug 2021, 9:39 am

QuietThoughts wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.
Because not every inch of land has been provisioned for either a private individual, enterprise or the local Government, right?  Your feeble-minded social construct doesn't make something normal.  Nation state is destructive and you've been parasitising Earth's natural resources and squandering it on subsisting within a system that merely detracts from the overall well-being of our ecosystems since the day you were born.  Nice stereotypes by the way.
No stereotyping involved.  I have been homeless, and I know what those people are really like because I experienced their attitudes and behaviors up close and personal.  Had I not stayed clean and sober, and hustled every honest job I could, I might have become just another shuffling zombie or street-corner evangelist preaching against government conspiracies.  I have also taken in people who would have otherwise been homeless to help them get back on their feet and on the way to being better citizens.  After about a half-dozen such failed endeavors, I say, "Never again".  Those people seem to have phobias against oversight and personal accountability.
Irrelevant.
Fnord wrote:
But if YOU wish to advocate for the homeless, then YOU go right ahead and open up YOUR home to them.  You will soon regret it.
Straw man.
How so?

Have YOU ever worked on trying to rehabilitate homeless people?  I have.  This is relevant, and no "Strawman".

Have YOU ever been homeless?  I have.  This is also relevant.

Most people who advocate for the homeless have been neither, yet they seem to believe that they know what is best -- which seems to involve letting homeless people live in filth and squalor wherever they can find an open space, no matter how much crime and disease they spread among ambitious, self-respecting, and hard-working people.


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Fnord
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02 Aug 2021, 9:46 am

Nades wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuietThoughts wrote:
Maybe some people like being homeless. Who's to say they have a problem if they choose that way of living?
The taxpayers who can no longer access the beaches and parks they pay for; the merchants whose customers are scared off by filthy, drug-crazed people demanding to be paid for the use of "their" sidewalks; and the homeowners afraid to leave their own homes because strangers are literally camped out on the front lawns.  Sure, let the bums choose to be homeless; but there are still vast stretches of wilderness in which they can practice their lifestyle instead of parasitizing honest, hard-working city-dwellers.
Same in cities around here. The pestering for money is unbelievable and some will relentlessly hound you and follow you until you give in. I stopped handing money out now because I've nearly been mugged twice once they realise what pocket your wallet is in.
Wise move.

Those who seem to believe that homelessness does not involve addiction, criminal behavior, and threats to public safety and health need to spend a year on Skid Row with no outside help.  If they survive, they will come away with new-found respect for those who make their livings with honest work, and contempt for those who do not.


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QuietThoughts
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02 Aug 2021, 10:11 am

Fnord wrote:
Have YOU ever worked on trying to rehabilitate homeless people?  I have.  This is relevant, and no "Strawman".

Can't say it is when I explicitly made clear that I don't see homelessness as being out of the ordinary, not that I'd necessarily choose that lifestyle myself.

Fnord wrote:
Have YOU ever been homeless?  I have.  This is also relevant.

Not when your experiences cannot be extrapolated to every city, town, suburb or human settlement known to man.

Fnord wrote:
Most people who advocate for the homeless have been neither, yet they seem to believe that they know what is best -- which seems to involve letting homeless people live in filth and squalor wherever they can find an open space, no matter how much crime and disease they spread among ambitious, self-respecting, and hard-working people.

And yet, ambition hinges on nurture, nature, DNA, epigenetics, environment (climate, pollution, upbringing, peers, life experiences), diet and much more.

I don't know why you think you own the beaches by virtue of being a taxpayer of your social construct nobody is obligated to recognise. Although.. I suppose people would rather pay for others to pick up after their brazen littering instead of walking to a trash can.

The beaches belong to every man, woman and child roaming this planet - they aren't man made archipelagos, they are intrinsic biomes made for everyone to enjoy or simply observe and respect.