Page 1 of 6 [ 94 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Angnix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,243
Location: Michigan

07 Aug 2021, 1:36 pm

I've heard arguments that if a place can't pay a living wage to it's workers they shouldn't be in business, but living in a small Midwestern town I'm seeing something disturbing. Many small restaurants, etc... Have turned to hiring teenagers around here... Of course not only are they gonna lose their employees when school starts again, but at the restaurant I was just at, the teens were talking about things that were very inappropriate and now theyres almost no customers there... I'm being offered jobs, but I am having severe transportation issues and my social workers keep telling me I shouldn't work....


_________________
Crazy Bird Lady!! !
Also likes Pokemon

Avatar: A Shiny from the new Pokemon Pearl remake, Shiny Chatot... I named him TaterTot...

FINALLY diagnosed with ASD 2/6/2020


goldfish21
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

08 Aug 2021, 12:45 pm

The USA has a bizarre labour/wage code for the restaurant industry, with some servers being paid as little as $2/hr. Who can survive in America on an income of $4,000.00/year for full time 40h/wk work? :? It's crystal clear to the rest of the developed world that America's laws need to be updated to include reasonable wages for the restaurant and hospitality industry. Even without government intervention, if we rely solely on the free market, unemployed members of the potential labour pool have the option of seeking employment elsewhere for higher pay and leaving restaurant jobs unfilled until employers begin offering higher wages. If restaurateurs cannot afford to pay reasonable wages (at least minimum wage - which is also less than Half of what it ought to be federally in the USA) then the solution is rather simple: Raise your menu prices to reflect the costs of running your business. If diners can't afford to pay for their meal at the true cost of providing it, then they can't afford to dine out. If fewer people dine out, some restaurants will close and the market will balance itself - such is life, business, economics etc. Gone are the days of expecting people to work for nothing so someone can enjoy the luxury of a meal cooked and served to them for $1.99.

You should probably seek a job that doesn't conflict with your transportation options. The people advising you are looking out for your best interests.


_________________
No :heart: for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

08 Aug 2021, 6:22 pm

I wish I could buy you a car.



Angnix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,243
Location: Michigan

09 Aug 2021, 5:43 pm

Na, I really need to get out of this small town somehow, my social workers have even been saying that, but they're not offering to help either.

But I'm tired of being so horribly triggered by stuff, I was having a good day until a neighbor said she didn't feel good and didn't say why... My mind comes to the conclusion somethings horribly wrong, etc...

They emergency changed my meds, which helped some... But not enough...


_________________
Crazy Bird Lady!! !
Also likes Pokemon

Avatar: A Shiny from the new Pokemon Pearl remake, Shiny Chatot... I named him TaterTot...

FINALLY diagnosed with ASD 2/6/2020


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

09 Aug 2021, 6:02 pm

I wish you could get a decent rent in Battle Creek.



XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

09 Aug 2021, 6:38 pm

If you can't pay your employees a living wage, then you shouldn't be in business.

Owning a business isn't a right, nor is there a "right" to cheap labor.

The U.S. seriously needs to get it's ducks in a row concerning worker rights.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,829
Location: Stendec

09 Aug 2021, 7:14 pm

U.S. citizens would also do well for themselves by not turning their collective noses up at honest labor.


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

09 Aug 2021, 7:16 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
If you can't pay your employees a living wage, then you shouldn't be in business.

Owning a business isn't a right, nor is there a "right" to cheap labor.

The U.S. seriously needs to get it's ducks in a row concerning worker rights.


What is the purpose of opening a business? When I opened my own restaurant, my goals were to make food that people would pay to eat and hopefully support myself doing something I liked, not support other people by paying them more than the economic value of the work performed, e.g. paying dishwashers as if they were skilled labor. What ends up happening when the minimum wage is set higher than the job is worth is that business owners automate where they can, hire fewer people, and work them as hard as they can to try and make the economics work, while often raising the prices and putting their goods and services out of the reach of all but the more affluent customers. Adding to the irony, big chains can absorb these hits better, while the small businesses that progressive types claim to prefer are the ones squeezed out, and then they b***h about how the only shops and restaurants are fast food and Walmart.

The policy that would be appropriate would be a higher marginal rate on high earners coupled with a negative income tax or UBI, but that would be harder politically (not least because it would hit the PMC types who are now the blue base), so blue states and cities just keep piling burdens on small businesses and demonizing business owners, then wonder why all their favorite places keep going out of business. Seriously, put six figures of your own money and thousands of hours of your time into building a business, then listen to people complain about how you're exploiting the workers because you're not paying skilled labor rates for grunt jobs typically performed by highschoolers while simultaneously complaining about your prices, then get back to me.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,829
Location: Stendec

09 Aug 2021, 7:20 pm

↑ Have you thought of running a "ghost" restaurant?  I do not know exactly how they operate; but they are essentially just a kitchen with a pick-up area for delivery drivers -- no dine-in facilities.

Are they profitable?  I do not know...


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

09 Aug 2021, 7:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
↑ Have you thought of running a "ghost" restaurant?  I do not know exactly how they operate; but they are essentially just a kitchen with a pick-up area for delivery drivers -- no dine-in facilities.

Are they profitable?  I do not know...


True story; about six months after opening, I thought up that exact idea after noticing how much of my business was coming in through delivery apps, then started hearing about ghost kitchens, and realized that that's what I should have done in the first place. Not only can you cut out all of the front of house staff and dining space, you can optimize your food to be delivered rather than delivering food that doesn't travel well, you can locate in cheaper areas without parking or foot traffic, and you never have to touch cash if you do app only, eliminating one avenue of employee theft and also making yourself a less attractive target for crime.

Ultimately though, the restaurant business is a lot of work for not a lot of money and more headaches than you can possibly imagine, so after having sold my business and taking a covid layoff from a different restaurant I'm doing the cliche thing and learning to code, watching all my highschool friends make big money working remotely has convinced me that pursuing a low paying passion career really is for chumps and romantics (I'm a romantic, not a chump).


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,182
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

09 Aug 2021, 8:34 pm

Dox47 wrote:
so after having sold my business and taking a covid layoff from a different restaurant I'm doing the cliche thing and learning to code, watching all my highschool friends make big money working remotely has convinced me that pursuing a low paying passion career really is for chumps and romantics (I'm a romantic, not a chump).

That's what I've been neck-deep in for the past four years - went right from accounting into C# and Javascript, have a two year contract almost completed and I can't wait for that to be behind me.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

10 Aug 2021, 5:02 am

Dox47 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
If you can't pay your employees a living wage, then you shouldn't be in business.

Owning a business isn't a right, nor is there a "right" to cheap labor.

The U.S. seriously needs to get it's ducks in a row concerning worker rights.


What is the purpose of opening a business? When I opened my own restaurant, my goals were to make food that people would pay to eat and hopefully support myself doing something I liked, not support other people by paying them more than the economic value of the work performed, e.g. paying dishwashers as if they were skilled labor. What ends up happening when the minimum wage is set higher than the job is worth is that business owners automate where they can, hire fewer people, and work them as hard as they can to try and make the economics work, while often raising the prices and putting their goods and services out of the reach of all but the more affluent customers. Adding to the irony, big chains can absorb these hits better, while the small businesses that progressive types claim to prefer are the ones squeezed out, and then they b***h about how the only shops and restaurants are fast food and Walmart.

The policy that would be appropriate would be a higher marginal rate on high earners coupled with a negative income tax or UBI, but that would be harder politically (not least because it would hit the PMC types who are now the blue base), so blue states and cities just keep piling burdens on small businesses and demonizing business owners, then wonder why all their favorite places keep going out of business. Seriously, put six figures of your own money and thousands of hours of your time into building a business, then listen to people complain about how you're exploiting the workers because you're not paying skilled labor rates for grunt jobs typically performed by highschoolers while simultaneously complaining about your prices, then get back to me.


Nope.

If you can't pay your employees a decent wage, you shouldn't be in business. The restaurant industry in the U.S. is currently struggling to find workers, not only because so many people are dead from COVID, but because of the low pay and sh_tty working conditions. Workers may not be entitled to your money, but your not entitled to their labor.

And you primarily hire teenagers? Cool. I take it your business is closed during school hours? Be honest. Those jobs were never intended "for teenagers."


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

10 Aug 2021, 5:25 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Nope.

If you can't pay your employees a decent wage, you shouldn't be in business. The restaurant industry in the U.S. is currently struggling to find workers, not only because so many people are dead from COVID, but because of the low pay and sh_tty working conditions. Workers may not be entitled to your money, but your not entitled to their labor.

And you primarily hire teenagers? Cool. I take it your business is closed during school hours? Be honest. Those jobs were never intended "for teenagers."


Whose responsibility is it to take care of the citizenry? The state, or private industry? Why does someone who opens a business suddenly become responsible for other citizens beyond paying the value of their labor, when someone simply collecting a paycheck does not? Why would anyone ever open a business in that environment where they're treated as a piggybank to loot by local government (which, if you're in a blue city, is exactly how you're treated)?

As to my shop, my employees were largely young people just out of high school, often working their first jobs, and so requiring significant training in order to become productive, and those jobs were absolutely intended as entry level for young people. I'll also tell you that in cities with high minimum wages, those jobs have dried up for young people, as a business owner being forced to pay top dollar, you can't take a chance on an eager young worker with no job history, you hire a 40 year old immigrant who has been doing the job for 20 years and can do it faster and more efficiently for your labor dollar, and even then only if you can't automate the job or force other employees to cover it in addition to their regular duties. Remember, I've been in restaurants for the better part of 20 years, with ownership only coming during the last few, I'm very familiar with how unpleasant the work is and all the ways you get squeezed as a worker, but your take on ownership is just plain ignorant.

Again, invest your life savings and thousands of hours of your time, then you get to talk about who should and should not be in business.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

10 Aug 2021, 5:45 am

Dox47 wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nope.

If you can't pay your employees a decent wage, you shouldn't be in business. The restaurant industry in the U.S. is currently struggling to find workers, not only because so many people are dead from COVID, but because of the low pay and sh_tty working conditions. Workers may not be entitled to your money, but your not entitled to their labor.

And you primarily hire teenagers? Cool. I take it your business is closed during school hours? Be honest. Those jobs were never intended "for teenagers."


Whose responsibility is it to take care of the citizenry? The state, or private industry? Why does someone who opens a business suddenly become responsible for other citizens beyond paying the value of their labor, when someone simply collecting a paycheck does not? Why would anyone ever open a business in that environment where they're treated as a piggybank to loot by local government (which, if you're in a blue city, is exactly how you're treated)?

As to my shop, my employees were largely young people just out of high school, often working their first jobs, and so requiring significant training in order to become productive, and those jobs were absolutely intended as entry level for young people. I'll also tell you that in cities with high minimum wages, those jobs have dried up for young people, as a business owner being forced to pay top dollar, you can't take a chance on an eager young worker with no job history, you hire a 40 year old immigrant who has been doing the job for 20 years and can do it faster and more efficiently for your labor dollar, and even then only if you can't automate the job or force other employees to cover it in addition to their regular duties. Remember, I've been in restaurants for the better part of 20 years, with ownership only coming during the last few, I'm very familiar with how unpleasant the work is and all the ways you get squeezed as a worker, but your take on ownership is just plain ignorant.

Again, invest your life savings and thousands of hours of your time, then you get to talk about who should and should not be in business.


The State ends up paying for its citizens when those citizens need to rely on welfare because their job doesn't pay them enough to live. I don't see why taxpayers should get stuck holding the bag while business owners reap all the profit.

And I don't care how much money you've spent, or how much time you've invested. You are not entitled to cheap labor. If you can't pay a living wage, you can't afford to be in business. Right now, restaurant owners nationwide are learning that the hard way with the current labor shortage.

And, no, those jobs are not "for teenagers," unless the business is only open when school is out.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

10 Aug 2021, 7:40 am

Any job that helps pay the rent/mortgage/whatever is a viable job. A McJob is a job.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,829
Location: Stendec

10 Aug 2021, 8:59 am

Labor is also a supply-and-demand commodity.  When millions of unskilled laborers are available for only thousands of jobs, the cost of labor drops dramatically.  There is no reason for an employer to hire one person at $15 per hour when that same employer can hire two other people at $7 per hour each for the same quality of work.

(For every résumé I receive from experienced engineers looking for careers, there are dozens of résumés from unskilled and semi-skilled laborers looking for work.  I offer higher wages to the engineers because (1) they are not as plentiful as the others, and (2) they are in greater demand than the others.  It is simply supply-and-demand.)

Yeah, I get it.  $7 per hour is not a "living wage" and $15 per hour is legally-mandated "minimum wage" for most work.

But keep in mind that while employment may be a right mandated by law, it is also a privilege granted by the employer.  Baring the various forms of discrimination, there is no reason why an employer MUST hire the person demanding the higher salary when there are people willing to work for much less at the same job producing the same quality of work.


_________________
 
No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.