Opposition to the Vaccines makes me sad

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VegetableMan
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10 Aug 2021, 9:24 am

Fnord wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
My friend who has an autoimmune disorder had an antibodies test. It showed she had none, despite receiving the vaccine.
That does not mean the vaccines are ineffective for everybody; it only means that her autoimmune disorder blocks the effectiveness of the vaccine.


I never claimed orherwise. There could people with autoimmune issues that don't know what the CDC has said, so...I'm just very troubled these days over my friend.


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Juliette
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10 Aug 2021, 9:24 am

envirozentinel wrote:
@Juliette: a very well considered and kind post. If only more people on this earth thought like that, the world would be a better place. And anxiety is human nature when faced with anything new and not previously experienced.

I registered well nigh a month ago but haven't received my code yet so I can go and get it. I hear they accept walk-ins at some centres.

I don't have a problem with the vaccine as such, but not sure I need it as I had Covid in early November so the antibodies in my immune system are such that I cannot get reinfected. If I never had Covid I would be more insistent on getting the jab. But I need to get the jab for the sake of other unvaccinated people to whom I could unwittingly transmit the virus to, since many people in my friend and family circle are against the vaccine.


Dear enviro - Where you are, sounds pretty slow in getting back to you on that code. That side of things here is very swift, within 3 days usually. May you be better protected soon :).

So far as efficacy of the vaccine, even for those who’ve had covid, you will likely find that once you’ve had the first, let alone the 2nd vaccine, should you have the virus a 2nd time(not that uncommon), you will recover alot more swiftly and live, rather than risk death itself, as so many are finding.

I too believe I had covid, when in Wales prior to the first lockdown. I was eager to be vaccinated twice for optimum survival rate thereafter and will continue to wear a mask in stores and on any public transport I find myself on …

My daughter(Aspie and with the autoimmune disorder, Myasthenia Gravis(MG) caught covid early on and we almost lost her. Even said our goodbyes. It was very distressing. She survived, then had her first shot. She fared very well. Then she tested positive yet again some time later, as she was working with children(provides therapy for those in trauma). Ironically, she tested negative the very day of the 2nd shot, though had not been feeling 100%. Day after the 2nd shot, she was confirmed to have covid for a 2nd time. Again, she required an ambulance and hospitalisation, couldn’t breathe, talk or eat … She was placed in the covid unit and again, survived.

My father was anti vaccines and as a child, I caught everything under the sun and was very ill, especially with measles. I’ve been pro-vaccine ever since as I don’t believe in needless suffering. I worked with babies and children as a Nursery Nurse and child welfare is of particular interest. A programme I watched recently cemented that faith in vaccines. Just reading up on the history of vaccines in eradicating smallpox, the black pox etc, learning from the past and seeing the suffering there once was, and hearing the stories from those times, would make anyone question the non-vaccine stance.

Stay safe enviro, and may your family and friends too.



Juliette
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10 Aug 2021, 9:36 am

Fnord wrote:
I nearly had a meltdown in church this week.  At an open policy meeting, real people were actually saying that Christians should not judge others who refuse to get vaccinated against covid and then refuse to let them worship with the rest of us despite the contamination they may bring in to the church.  I tried to convince them to tighten their standards for the sake of safety, health and life; but they would only smile, talk down to me, and tell me that they do not want to violate anyone's rights.

Let me see if I got this straight ... we violate the rights of gun-owners by telling them to not bring guns into the church because "someone might get hurt", but we cannot tell people to not bring their unvaccinated selves into church because it might violated their rights, even though "someone might get hurt".

I knew that double standards were rampant in the Christian church; but this goes far beyond stupid!


I agree with and support your stance entirely. The church would better serve its congregation in keeping “ALL” safe. There are times when difficult decisions are called for. In this case, for the sake of protecting and saving lives. Those who are choosing not to be vaccinated or those who refuse to wear masks, would surely be safer in their homes. How can anyone choose to risk the life of another, when the solution here is so obvious. There is no either or …

Those making decisions for your church as a whole, have a duty of care to all. Strength of character is needed by those making the rules. Faith is one thing, common sense, another!



Last edited by Juliette on 10 Aug 2021, 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

rowan_nichol
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10 Aug 2021, 9:59 am

VegetableMan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
My friend who has an autoimmune disorder had an antibodies test. It showed she had none, despite receiving the vaccine.
That does not mean the vaccines are ineffective for everybody; it only means that her autoimmune disorder blocks the effectiveness of the vaccine.


I never claimed orherwise. There could people with autoimmune issues that don't know what the CDC has said, so...I'm just very troubled these days over my friend.


It would be a concern, though what seems to be emerging is that the vaccines stimulate not just antibodies and memory B cells to make them in the future, but also T-cells in good numbers, and it seems to be the case that tha T cells play a bug part in the protection the vaccination offers.



kraftiekortie
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10 Aug 2021, 10:07 am

The antibodies tests don't detect ALL antibodies. Even if there are no antibodies detected within the conventional antibodies test, it doesn't mean the person doesn't, say, have T-cells which act as antibodies.

Still, it's good for the immunocompromised to be cautious.



rowan_nichol
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10 Aug 2021, 10:20 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The antibodies tests don't detect ALL antibodies. Even if there are no antibodies detected within the conventional antibodies test, it doesn't mean the person doesn't, say, have T-cells which act as antibodies.

Still, it's good for the immunocompromised to be cautious.


Indeed. Often the tests respond to antibodies against the virus nucleocapsid, which would be generated with infection, rather than antibodies to the spike which could be either infect or vaccine generated, as the tests are looking for signs of having been infected.



Fireblossom
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10 Aug 2021, 10:46 am

Guess you're a better person than I am, since personally, they just make me angry.

Then again, I'm in a risk group myself, so I might be slightly biased.



nick007
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10 Aug 2021, 11:58 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Nick: Getting vaccinated provides enhanced protection, it supplements the antibodies produced in people by COVID infection. It might be like 1 plus 1 equals 3.

Moreover, it would be theoretically possible that, after getting COVID 1.5 years ago (like I did), that the antibodies produced by my COVID would not have as much of an effect as if I had COVID, say, four months ago.

Speaking of which: maybe I should get an antibodies test.....I got one in May, 2020, and it turned out positive.
This study on Drugs.com says antibodies are still stable after 7 months

COVID Antibodies Stable 7 Months After Infection: Study
https://www.drugs.com/news/covid-antibo ... cc4a6e3119

MONDAY, Aug. 9, 2021 -- Antibody levels remain stable or even rise seven months after infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, European researchers report.

The study from Spain also found that preexisting antibodies against coronaviruses that cause the common cold may also protect against COVID-19.

Researchers analyzed blood samples collected from 578 health care workers at a Barcelona hospital four times between March and October of last year.

The blood samples were checked for levels and types of antibodies to six COVID-19 antigens, as well as antibodies against the four coronaviruses that cause colds.

"This is the first study that evaluates antibodies to such a large panel of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies over seven months," study leader Carlota Dobaño said in a news release from the Barcelona Institute for Global Health (ISGlobal), where she is a researcher.

The majority of infections among health care workers occurred during the pandemic's first wave. The percentage of participants with SARS-CoV-2 antibodies rose only slightly between March and October, from 13.5% to 16.4%.

Levels of IgG antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein stayed stable over time, confirming findings from other recent studies.

But researchers were surprised to see those levels increase in 75% of participants from the fifth month onwards, with no evidence of reexposure to the virus.

None of the study participants had reinfections.

Those who were infected by SARS-CoV-2 had lower levels of antibodies against human cold viruses (HCoV). Those without symptoms had higher levels of protection against HCoV than those with COVID symptoms.

That suggests that antibodies against cold coronaviruses could provide cross-protection against COVID-19 infection or disease, according to findings published Aug. 6 in the journal Nature Communications.

"Although cross-protection by preexisting immunity to common cold coronaviruses remains to be confirmed, this could help explain the big differences in susceptibility to the disease within the population," Dobaño said.


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nick007
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10 Aug 2021, 12:24 pm

I really like Juliette's 1st post in this thread. I have some various concerns about the vaccines & if I express those concerns, LOTS of pro-vaxers would quickly accuse me of being a Trump lover who is against science & believes that the world if flat, believes that vaccines cause autism, that parents should have the right to endanger their children's health for religious & moral reasons, that I am a conspiracy theorist, & I'd get accused of being extremely selfish & wanting others to get sick & for people to watch their loved 1s die. NONE of those things are true about me but the pro-vaxers are very quick to jump on the hating bandwagon. Alienating everyone who does not support you by ganging up on them & accusing the dissidence of evil crazy made up cr@p is a very great way to encourage them to see the error of their ways & suddenly have a change of heart & want to switch sides :roll: The pro-vaxers LOVE to accuse Trump & his supporters of being hateful bullies but some pro-vaxers have become so anti-Trump that they sold out & basically became hateful bullies themselves. Both sides have a "you either support me or you are my enemy" attitude. Before Covid began I used to consider myself a Progressive Socialist but after seeing what hypocritical bullies some became, I was forced to quit identifying with them & I now consider myself an Independent Freethinker. I just can NOT get behind & condone bullying which is why I can NO longer support the left wing establishment & I still can NOT support the right wing establishment so I will go my own way with politics like the many others who are excluded & can not be part of either establishment.


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Last edited by nick007 on 10 Aug 2021, 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

envirozentinel
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10 Aug 2021, 12:35 pm

Juliette wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
@Juliette: a very well considered and kind post. If only more people on this earth thought like that, the world would be a better place. And anxiety is human nature when faced with anything new and not previously experienced.



Dear enviro - Where you are, sounds pretty slow in getting back to you on that code. That side of things here is very swift, within 3 days usually. May you be better protected soon :).



My daughter(Aspie and with the autoimmune disorder, Myasthenia Gravis(MG) caught covid early on and we almost lost her. Even said our goodbyes. It was very distressing. She survived, then had her first shot. She fared very well. Then she tested positive yet again some time later, as she was working with children(provides therapy for those in trauma). Ironically, she tested negative the very day of the 2nd shot, though had not been feeling 100%. Day after the 2nd shot, she was confirmed to have covid for a 2nd time. Again, she required an ambulance and hospitalisation, couldn’t breathe, talk or eat … She was placed in the covid unit and again, survived.

My father was anti vaccines and as a child, I caught everything under the sun and was very ill, especially with measles. I’ve been pro-vaccine ever since as I don’t believe in needless suffering. I worked with babies and children as a Nursery Nurse and child welfare is of particular interest. A programme I watched recently cemented that faith in vaccines. Just reading up on the history of vaccines in eradicating smallpox, the black pox etc, learning from the past and seeing the suffering there once was, and hearing the stories from those times, would make anyone question the non-vaccine stance.

Stay safe enviro, and may your family and friends too.




Stupid WP glitch -when one quotes it made me captcha and I lost the draft of my response.

Thank you Juliette, I'm sorry you and your daughter had to go through so much hardship healthwise. I'm glad things are going better now. I think the reason for the hesitancy is that a pandemic is an abnormal situation and makes people panicky; also, lockdown gave some of them a chance to formulate assorted conspiracy theories.

Here in South Africa it is going slightly faster now and about 17% of the population are fully vaccinated. They initially started with health workers and the elderly, but now anyone over 35 can go plus the teachers.

No one saw this pandemic coming, although the late Sylvia Browne seems to have forecast it and said a virus would appear "about 2020" but would later disappear as suddenly as it appeared. That part remains to be seen...


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10 Aug 2021, 3:05 pm

I seem to think that those who believe who are so anti-lockdown and anti vaccine prefer if we all carried on as normal without masks, without socially distancing and let the virus run riot globally and overwhelming the world's health services to breaking point and then the virus will fade and die away because its run out of hosts to infect.



VegetableMan
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10 Aug 2021, 3:18 pm

rowan_nichol wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
My friend who has an autoimmune disorder had an antibodies test. It showed she had none, despite receiving the vaccine.
That does not mean the vaccines are ineffective for everybody; it only means that her autoimmune disorder blocks the effectiveness of the vaccine.


I never claimed orherwise. There could people with autoimmune issues that don't know what the CDC has said, so...I'm just very troubled these days over my friend.


It would be a concern, though what seems to be emerging is that the vaccines stimulate not just antibodies and memory B cells to make them in the future, but also T-cells in good numbers, and it seems to be the case that tha T cells play a bug part in the protection the vaccination offers.


I hope so. I just worry so much that I might lose my best friend.


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10 Aug 2021, 4:34 pm

I am very anti-lockdown but I'm no longer anti-vaccine. I've had my first jab.


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nick007
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10 Aug 2021, 5:30 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I am very anti-lockdown but I'm no longer anti-vaccine. I've had my first jab.
I felt horrible the day after my 2nd jab but I probably had an extreme reaction compared to most. I'm NOT actually anti-vaccine though I may appear like I am. I strongly support people being allowed to make their own decisions about their own personal health. I do NOT have a problem with vaccines in general, I have a problem with people being pressured & forced into getting them, especially when the vaccines are very new. I often see meds advertised on TV & a couple months later I see commercials talking about class action lawsuits against those same meds because some people had sever side-effects. Lots of meds that get approved by the FDA latter get recalled by the FDA due to concerns & issues about the med's safety.


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11 Aug 2021, 6:38 am

Fnord wrote:
cbd wrote:
i'm adverse to vaccination ... based on the fact that it hasn't been field tested for long enough ...

Over 3-billion people have received the vaccine in the last year.  How many more people, and how much more time do you need to be convinced?

Then there is also the fact that those who wind up on ventilators are begging for the vaccine, but for them it is often too late -- their last spoken words to their loved ones are usually "Get Vaccinated".

Remember, it is the unvaccinated -- people just like you -- who are to blame for the spread of the coronavirus, not the rest of us.

But being a spreader is your choice, right?  Just like all those smokers who choose death by cancer and COPD.


you're wrong . according to "experts" .. vaccinated people can carry and pass on covid . so really it makes no difference . the spread has more to do with social exposure and contact . if i sat at home and never left for example , how would i be contributing to the spread ? . you're thinking too black & white

--

in regards with 3 billion vaccinated . there is not enough of a timeline to guage long terms effects .. companies producing the vaccine hold no liability .. that should atleast set of alarm bells for anybody . it's not the vaccine and protection i'm against . it's the fact the companies cannot be held responsible .. which leads me to question .. why ?

some vaccines have caused sterilisation in the past . food for thought . especially if you don't currently but are looking to have a family in the future .



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12 Aug 2021, 2:12 pm

cbd wrote:
you're wrong . according to "experts" .. vaccinated people can carry and pass on covid . so really it makes no difference . the spread has more to do with social exposure and contact . if i sat at home and never left for example , how would i be contributing to the spread ? . you're thinking too black & white

--

in regards with 3 billion vaccinated . there is not enough of a timeline to guage long terms effects .. companies producing the vaccine hold no liability .. that should atleast set of alarm bells for anybody . it's not the vaccine and protection i'm against . it's the fact the companies cannot be held responsible .. which leads me to question .. why ?

some vaccines have caused sterilisation in the past . food for thought . especially if you don't currently but are looking to have a family in the future .
Well said.

One issue I've noticed is that lots of people who are pro-vaccine & pro-mask have no problems with going out & getting together with very large groups of people if they are all wearing their masks & believe that everyone is vaccinated. There's plenty of group photos online with people all huddled together & all wearing masks & the people posting them have been complaining about others not wearing masks. When the virus started lots of people were pushing for the economy to be shut down in order to practice social distancing in the name of public safety. Then those same people went out shortly after in large public protests in support for Black Lives Matter. For the record I do support BLM but they should NOT be able to have it both ways. How come the economy needed to be shut down in order to enforce social distancing in the name of public safety but going out & publicly protesting in very large groups is not a public safety hazard :?: Then they actually had the nerve to whine & rant about people spreading the virus by protesting afainst the shutdown. Their hypocritecy would be very laughable if it was in an apocalyptic movie instead of being real life. Completely oblivious hypocritecy makes it extremely difficult for me to take anything they say about the pandemic seriously.


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Last edited by nick007 on 12 Aug 2021, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.