Are male autistics smarter than females?

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Mountain Goat
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15 Aug 2021, 2:11 pm

hurtloam wrote:
Blue_Star wrote:
That's a bit of a logic leap. Wanting more opportunities & not to be auto-locked-out of positions, equates to neither sacrificing men nor all-women-only workforces.

There should be no discomfort in a man choosing to go into nursing, teaching, childcare, etc. or a woman choosing engineering, crime-fighting, etc.

To the original topic, one could argue that women/girls/females having lower diagnostic rates might indicate higher intelligence in their abilities to adapt better. Higher social iq would just be different, not lesser.

Mountain Goat wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
One thing is what my Mother says and I actually agree with her in this is that males and females are different, and part of the issues in the past (E.g. the 1970's when I grew up where they "Tried" to get men and women to be the same) is that it simply did not work.


No. What nonsense. Women wanted to have opportunities that they were denied when they were quite capable of doing them.

It has worked. I have a job in a male dominated industry that I would have been denied in the 70s. And I'm allowed to wear jeans to work, not horrible nylon tights.


How many mens lives are you willing to sacrifice to promote all companies to have a women only workforce?


I agree with blue star. You made a leap of logic there Mountain Goat I didn't say men couldn't have jobs.

Do you really think that I have taken a man's job? That it is not my right to use my brain to do something that I am good at?

I definitely think I was not diagnosed because I am intelligent, higher than average and did well at school even though my social skills were obviously bad.


Twice in recent years I have 20+ more years of on the job experience and I was not considered for promotion to a job I had done previously once because a woman applied (Who had no experience and it showed and she did not last long), and the other time it was because the individual was an ethnic minority who had worked for a year in the company. I was sidelined simply because I am a white man. The company was given generous government grants to employ women and ethnic minorities. If they did not get these grants I would have been first inline to both positions through my past experince and my years of training. I was pushed to do more and more for less and less because they could get away with it which ended up in me having a few massive burnouts because I simply questioned their decision.


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Snowy Owl
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15 Aug 2021, 2:27 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Smartness is not part of the diagnostic criteria at all. If anything smart autistics are being underdiagnosed because they can present as eccentric not disabled.


I'd agree entirely based on my own particular circumstances.

As for the matter on sexism, I believe Ruth Bader Ginsberg said it best: When asked how many female judges she felt was fair to have on the Supreme Court, she said, "All of them." When asked if she felt that was a sexist stance, she replied that, for the majority of U.S. History, the Supreme Court was only male. What then is the difference of having an all female Supreme Court?

It isn't a "whataboutism" to ask for a fair shake in gender equality. Women are people too, and if we stop seeing it in terms of whether it is male vs female, we start to see that it is just about people. And all people deserve equal, *equitable*, and fair treatment. Stop treating some people like they deserve fewer rights because of some arbitrary distinction, and the problem is solved.

Anyway, that is it for me. It kinda goes the same for those with disability, whether mental or physical.



hurtloam
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15 Aug 2021, 2:28 pm

If true, that's not really the fault of women and ethnic minorities looking for suitable opportunities, but a company being greedy and taking a grant they weren't really entitled to because they weren't fulfilling the heart behind the grant. Those grants are meant to give someone with potential an entry into an industry they might be locked out of otherwise.

Sounds like the company just wanted some money and hired anyone willy nilly to get that money.

That's not how things are meant to be and that's not what we are advocating when us women want to be given opportunities.

Using that example to say women can't do and don't deserve jobs misses the point.



Mountain Goat
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15 Aug 2021, 2:32 pm

hurtloam wrote:
If true, that's not really the fault of women and ethnic minorities looking for suitable opportunities, but a company being greedy and taking a grant they weren't really entitled to because they weren't fulfilling the heart behind the grant. Those grants are meant to give someone with potential an entry into an industry they might be locked out of otherwise.

Sounds like the company just wanted some money and hired anyone willy nilly to get that money.

That's not how things are meant to be and that's not what we are advocating when us women want to be given opportunities.

Using that example to say women can't do and don't deserve jobs misses the point.


I was specifically told that it was so that they could comply with the new government regulations. I asked what are my chances of increasing my wage and getting out of the situation I was in (Bicycle mechanics have to work extra "Free" hours to keep their jobs but sales staff do not). I was told "No chance".
It is how it is. Why we keep hearing of men committing suicide. It is never women. Always straight white men as their avenues have been blocked so they have no future. I want to do something to stop this by having real equality so everyone is equal. It is definately not equal in this part of the UK.
And what gets me the most is we are not allowed to complain. If we speak out we are labelled as sexist or racist etc, because we want equal rights and people are conditioned today that equal rights means to subdue white men.

I can give you example after example of men who have been ousted from their positions. One man was just two years away from retirement and he had joined a company when he left school at 14. The company was 200 years old. Women wanted to work there. The job involved a lot of manual lifting. He was in his late 60's and in the managers office... A job they gave only to people who had been in the company for many years as due to the hard manual labour of the other jobs, their bodies had been hammered, so the last 5 years or so would be a cushy office job.
Women complained because the new recruits were expected to work outside in the yard. The women took it to court. They won their case and had to be given the management jobs. They did not know how hard the work was so they pushed the young men too hard and most left. The old men were sent to replace them who could not keep up the pace. They collapsed the whole company but to try to save the company the womwn had been using the pension money to prop up the company so when it collapsed, so did the pensions. The man was in tears when he was telling me this. He had no qualifications and was forced to look for work. He was a total broken man who was suicidal. I heared so many things like this. Many men who are found hung or would walk down to the railway and end their lives. When on rhe railway we were averaging one death every other week just in my local area. Some weeks near Christmas were two a week. All were mwn. Somw young. Somw old. Always white men.


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Last edited by Mountain Goat on 15 Aug 2021, 2:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Jakki
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15 Aug 2021, 2:37 pm

Each according to their own abilities........

(Even when it comes to ducks) . lolz


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hurtloam
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15 Aug 2021, 2:42 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
If true, that's not really the fault of women and ethnic minorities looking for suitable opportunities, but a company being greedy and taking a grant they weren't really entitled to because they weren't fulfilling the heart behind the grant. Those grants are meant to give someone with potential an entry into an industry they might be locked out of otherwise.

Sounds like the company just wanted some money and hired anyone willy nilly to get that money.

That's not how things are meant to be and that's not what we are advocating when us women want to be given opportunities.

Using that example to say women can't do and don't deserve jobs misses the point.


I was specifically told that it was so that they could comply with the new government regulations. I asked what are my chances of increasing my wage and getting out of the situation I was in (Bicycle mechanics have to work extra "Free" hours to keep their jobs but sales staff do not). I was told "No chance".
It is how it is. Why we keep hearing of men committing suicide. It is never women. Always straight white men as their avenues have been blocked so they have no future.


So now you're saying women never commit suicide.



hurtloam
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15 Aug 2021, 2:45 pm

And how is this my fault. Am I supposed to quit my job so a man can have it?



hurtloam
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15 Aug 2021, 2:54 pm

I don't agree with positive discrimination for the sake of filling numbers. That's not equality really. But looking out for individuals with talent and skills that you may have overlooked otherwise is good.

In my case with my current job I was ill and missed my interview, but they called me in again a few weeks later and offered me the job because they were impressed with my experience and even more so with the presentation I gave at the interview and how I answered questions.



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15 Aug 2021, 2:56 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
If true, that's not really the fault of women and ethnic minorities looking for suitable opportunities, but a company being greedy and taking a grant they weren't really entitled to because they weren't fulfilling the heart behind the grant. Those grants are meant to give someone with potential an entry into an industry they might be locked out of otherwise.

Sounds like the company just wanted some money and hired anyone willy nilly to get that money.

That's not how things are meant to be and that's not what we are advocating when us women want to be given opportunities.

Using that example to say women can't do and don't deserve jobs misses the point.


I was specifically told that it was so that they could comply with the new government regulations. I asked what are my chances of increasing my wage and getting out of the situation I was in (Bicycle mechanics have to work extra "Free" hours to keep their jobs but sales staff do not). I was told "No chance".
It is how it is. Why we keep hearing of men committing suicide. It is never women. Always straight white men as their avenues have been blocked so they have no future. I want to do something to stop this by having real equality so everyone is equal. It is definately not equal in this part of the UK.
And what gets me the most is we are not allowed to complain. If we speak out we are labelled as sexist or racist etc, because we want equal rights and people are conditioned today that equal rights means to subdue white men.

I can give you example after example of men who have been ousted from their positions. One man was


As Hurtloam suggests, this is *not* the fault of women, but an exploitation being used to create a disparity that harms workers, but benefits the company.

...Which I would guess is owned by a rich white man.

Most of the arguments that are used to criticize feminism, racial equality, or other movements whose purpose is to promote civil rights and equality between people (regardless of race, gender, etc) are in fact just Classims that are disguised. And most of those Classisms are also sexist and racist inherently.

Black people are not at fault for a white man choosing to hire them over a white person, then blaming government mandates for why the white worker is out of a job. If not for the mandates, the black person would still be jobless and in poverty because of systemic racism that EXCLUDES them from such opportunities. In BOTH Cases the person who can make the choice is the rich white CEO at the top.

He hates the black person because he is black, he hates the white worker for being too poor, and he is content to pay the black person low wages, and tell the white worker that the reason he has no job is because of the black person.

You can sub in the term "black person" for "Woman" and get the exact same result.

If you want people to blame, blame the people who own the companies. They can very likely afford to hire both the black person, the white person, the woman, and the Autist, and pay them ALL a fair and equitable wage.

They choose not to because they like creating wage slaves and social disparity to further their own agenda.



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15 Aug 2021, 3:17 pm

Yes, these busines people with the big salaries who like to deflect the blame and have us fight amongst ourselves rather than lay the blame where it really lies and I am afraid I've fallen into that trap here.



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15 Aug 2021, 3:24 pm

My take on equality is to treat everyone equal.

The governments take on equality is to subdue the majority or the stronger and promote the weaker at their expense.

If we had real equality here in the UK then everyone would get an equal chance.

Twice in the past I was refused jobs based on my gender, and I know this because I made it to the interviews because I have a name which is used in both genders but it is not too common in the male form but is common in the female form. As soon as they saw I was male it was interview over. If I was a female I could complain under the sexism laws. As I am a male I could not.

USA laws are very different from what I gather?


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hurtloam
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15 Aug 2021, 3:39 pm

I'm British. Interestingly when I applied for a job with the local council they only allowed you to enter your first initial and last name so that the interviewers didn't know if a man or a woman had applied.

Back to the original question on intelligence.

How do we define intelligence? Aspies can really struggle with the face-to-face interview process. They can be really intelligent and know their stuff, but lack the skills to convey that or lack the skills to come over as personable.

Emotional intelligence counts in interviews and aspies can be on a back foot. Especially men who can't mask. Women could have the upper hand here because we are conditioned to appease rather than confront and can come over to interviewers in a more ingratiating manner.

So aspie females may be more likely to be gainfully employed... or not. I don't know.

I mentioned this in another thread, but my aspie manner of preciseness didn't help me find menial jobs. I just wanted independence when I left school and was keen to get any job, but sounded too educated even though I only had basic high school certificates.

I've fared better in more academic roles.



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15 Aug 2021, 3:53 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
The governments take on equality is to subdue the majority or the stronger and promote the weaker at their expense.


...

At the risk of jumping into a rabbit hole of highly sensitive subjects, I think first we must clarify why "The majority" is stronger and why "The minority" is weaker.

This seems like a good place for discriminatory and/or prejudicial assumptions to begin. If you assume one group is superior, in any way, to another group, you of course are going to have a belief that exerts a bias. We are all guilty of it, but you can adjust for such assumptions.

So let us get rid of that notion. Then we have a suggestion that the government is promoting one group over another group.

Why?

Well, if we look back at the previous assumption, which is that one group was "stronger," it may be because that group, with it's assumed privilege, may have been exerting undue, unwarranted, and unnecessary unfair treatment towards the other group because of a perceived deficiency. If this is true (Which we can see quite obviously it is, inherently because the statement of "stronger majority" vs "weaker minority" implies it's existence) then the government intervening on the behalf of one group to make sure they get fair treatment is required.

Why does the government need to intervene? Because we can see what happens WITHOUT government intervention. Discriminatory practices become rampant, and inequality becomes systemic.

It is kinda like having a Parent tell the naughty kid that they are not allowed to kick the other child. Both children are just that: children. But one clearly wanted to do something unkind to the other, and if the parent did not intervene, the naughty kid would still be kicking the other child on the ground.

That doesn't mean either child is superior, stronger, better... it just means one decided to take advantage of the other for <insert stupid reason here>.

Now, when a person who is racist/sexist/ableist/classist (most likely the latter, but quite likely all four) is told "Do not be unfair to black people/women/disabled/poor people, and that person happens to have the monetary power to exert influence, do you think they are going to be honest with you about WHY they are told to behave? Do you think they are going to *actually* behave?

We can go back to the naughty boy and the abused child. The Parent says to the naughty one that he can't harm the other child, and has to sit in time out. The Naughty boy doesn't accept that their actions are the reason for why they are receiving punishment. Instead, the naughty boy starts to say mean, nasty things to the abused child and vows that when he gets out of time out, and the parent's back is turned, he will beat the child again. He will also tell all his friends that the abused child is a whinging tattletale, and the abused child may suffer abuse from other people because of this word-of-mouth social ostracization.

Going back to our real world adult analog, the Business Owner who has been told by the government to treat worker's fairly isn't going to just sit by and accept this rule kindly. Sure, he will hire a woman. The woman will be so out of their depth and unqualified that they can justify keeping them at the low wages, and if they do fire them they get to check the box that says "Hired a female employee this quarter" AND they get to complain that "Women are incompetent." Not because they actually are, but because they created the scenario that allowed it to fail.

Meanwhile YOU are the bully cohort. You are angry that your job was taken by a woman. So the Business owner says to you, "See? Just like women to want to get a job they aren't qualified for. Remember in the good days when women stayed at home to cook the meals? No trouble for good ole boys like you then! But NO! The Government says I have to hire these dainty women to do a man's job. Doesn't that make your blood boil?"

And it does. You are so mad at women and the government for something that is actually the fault of the bully's, the racists, the sexists, the ableists, and the classists, that you overlook the WHY and only focus on how it affects you.

And again, instead of being mad at the business owner, who could hire both of you if he really wanted (And rarely is there a case where this is not possible), you are blaming the wrong person for the wrong that the business owner did to you.

U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson had a famous quote that goes:
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”

That is what is happening here. You are so busy being angry at women because the business owner gave you a reason to be angry, that you forgot the fact that it was the Business owner who didn't hire you.



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15 Aug 2021, 11:24 pm

Technic1 wrote:
Or are they just diagnosing autism more in males?


Lets see.

you're male.

you're diagnosed with aspergers.

AND

You made this post.

This post exhibits several kinds of utter abject stupidity.

Ergo: male aspies are obviously capable of astounding stupidity.

Therefore: the answer is no.



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16 Aug 2021, 5:10 am

I highly doubt it. It would also be hard to make research on the matter since women tend to be under diagnosed and the smartest people on the spectrum, be they men or women, are likelier to do well in life and thus unlikelier to get or even seek a diagnosis.

Also, Hurtloam and Something Profound, you two have my respect. I absolutely agree with what you say, but would not have been able to verbalize it that well.



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16 Aug 2021, 5:13 am

I think people with high cholesterol levels are smarter. :D It's as relevant as gender anyway.

I grew up with a hoard of smart people. I don't know which of them was autistic, but there seem to be an equal number of smart girls and boys. I suspect that boys might have slightly higher IQ, but girls did better because of their social abilities. They helped each other and worked hard together. Like with my parents, my dad would solve a problem quietly by himself, reading all the information he could get; my mom would instantly start asking around and get help. In the end the problem was solved with equal efficiency, except my mom also gained three new friends. Who's the smart one here? :D


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