Kabul preparing to fall
29 Aug 2021, 11:59 pm
Well, if true, this helps explain how the Taliban were able to take control of Kabul so quickly:
Quote:
In the void, law and order began to break down, with reports of armed gangs moving through the streets.
In a hastily arranged in-person meeting, senior U.S. military leaders in Doha — including McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command — spoke with Abdul Ghani Baradar, head of the Taliban’s political wing.
“We have a problem,” Baradar said, according to the U.S. official. “We have two options to deal with it: You [the United States military] take responsibility for securing Kabul or you have to allow us to do it.”
Throughout the day, Biden had remained resolute in his decision to withdraw all American troops from Afghanistan. The collapse of the Afghan government hadn’t changed his mind.
McKenzie, aware of those orders, told Baradar that the U.S. mission was only to evacuate American citizens, Afghan allies and others at risk. The United States, he told Baradar, needed the airport to do that.
On the spot, an understanding was reached, according to two other U.S. officials: The United States could have the airport until Aug. 31. But the Taliban would control the city.
Fighters were now on the move throughout Kabul, with the group’s spokesman issuing a revision of his earlier guidance: The Taliban hadn’t intended to take Kabul that day. But Ghani’s exit gave the group no choice.
In a hastily arranged in-person meeting, senior U.S. military leaders in Doha — including McKenzie, the commander of U.S. Central Command — spoke with Abdul Ghani Baradar, head of the Taliban’s political wing.
“We have a problem,” Baradar said, according to the U.S. official. “We have two options to deal with it: You [the United States military] take responsibility for securing Kabul or you have to allow us to do it.”
Throughout the day, Biden had remained resolute in his decision to withdraw all American troops from Afghanistan. The collapse of the Afghan government hadn’t changed his mind.
McKenzie, aware of those orders, told Baradar that the U.S. mission was only to evacuate American citizens, Afghan allies and others at risk. The United States, he told Baradar, needed the airport to do that.
On the spot, an understanding was reached, according to two other U.S. officials: The United States could have the airport until Aug. 31. But the Taliban would control the city.
Fighters were now on the move throughout Kabul, with the group’s spokesman issuing a revision of his earlier guidance: The Taliban hadn’t intended to take Kabul that day. But Ghani’s exit gave the group no choice.
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/28/taliban-takeover-kabul/
30 Aug 2021, 2:53 am
I was listening to a podcast interview with political commentator David French earlier today where he brought up the concept of tribes, and showed how the concept applied in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and now Afghanistan. In a very over-simplified nutshell, when the US went in Afghanistan, it became the strongest tribe in the region, and so smaller forces felt safe aligning with the US. But when the US leaves, the strongest tribe becomes someone else, and in Afghanistan's case that is the Taliban. It basically becomes self-preservation to re-align to the new strongest tribe.
He also talked about how we taught the Afghans to fight in reliance on US methods, with US air support, US contractors, and US communications and logistical systems. But all that pulled out with our service men, leaving the Afghan troops unable to fight in the way they had been taught (if I am summarizing correctly).
He had very harsh words for two things:
1. Anyone claiming the Afghan troops are cowards. For twenty years they spilled their blood in our battles, incurring exponentially higher losses than American troops did.
2. Americans who complain about the refugees the US evacuates. He first wanted it to be clear that there is a difference between evacuating people and bringing them into our country, but on the later he felt that most Americans fail to understand just how much we owe these people.
I have left a lot out, but he's worth listening to. Most of the things he said made a lot of sense.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
30 Aug 2021, 3:08 am
DW_a_mom wrote:
I was listening to a podcast interview with political commentator David French earlier today where he brought up the concept of tribes, and showed how the concept applied in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and now Afghanistan.
One of the best conservative commentators working today, and always worth listening to, he's the only religious commentator that I like, and that can make a scripture based argument without me wanting to smack him. He writes at The Dispatch, which is totally worth the $10/m if you're looking to broaden your intellectual horizons.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
30 Aug 2021, 3:26 am
DW_a_mom wrote:
I was listening to a podcast interview with political commentator David French earlier today where he brought up the concept of tribes, and showed how the concept applied in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and now Afghanistan. In a very over-simplified nutshell, when the US went in Afghanistan, it became the strongest tribe in the region, and so smaller forces felt safe aligning with the US. But when the US leaves, the strongest tribe becomes someone else, and in Afghanistan's case that is the Taliban. It basically becomes self-preservation to re-align to the new strongest tribe.
He also talked about how we taught the Afghans to fight in reliance on US methods, with US air support, US contractors, and US communications and logistical systems. But all that pulled out with our service men, leaving the Afghan troops unable to fight in the way they had been taught (if I am summarizing correctly).
He had very harsh words for two things:
1. Anyone claiming the Afghan troops are cowards. For twenty years they spilled their blood in our battles, incurring exponentially higher losses than American troops did.
2. Americans who complain about the refugees the US evacuates. He first wanted it to be clear that there is a difference between evacuating people and bringing them into our country, but on the later he felt that most Americans fail to understand just how much we owe these people.
I have left a lot out, but he's worth listening to. Most of the things he said made a lot of sense.
He also talked about how we taught the Afghans to fight in reliance on US methods, with US air support, US contractors, and US communications and logistical systems. But all that pulled out with our service men, leaving the Afghan troops unable to fight in the way they had been taught (if I am summarizing correctly).
He had very harsh words for two things:
1. Anyone claiming the Afghan troops are cowards. For twenty years they spilled their blood in our battles, incurring exponentially higher losses than American troops did.
2. Americans who complain about the refugees the US evacuates. He first wanted it to be clear that there is a difference between evacuating people and bringing them into our country, but on the later he felt that most Americans fail to understand just how much we owe these people.
I have left a lot out, but he's worth listening to. Most of the things he said made a lot of sense.
Your mention of the training the soldiers there received was brought up a couple of weeks ago in the "Wall street Journal" (I linked a portion in viewtopic.php?f=21&t=399299&p=8843438#p8843438), and does sound quite probable.
With regards to the 2 points you highlighted, I'd certainly agree with the first, whilst the second is "interesting"...
What is the best option for those evacuated from Afghanistan?
Settled in the USA, whose culture (and language) differs greatly from their country of origin (and, importantly, which a large portion of the population considers is "systemically racist", resulting in these refugees being placed into a hostile sistuation\nation [1])
OR
Settled in a 3rd party country whose culture is closer to their own (and so less "hostile"), but with a lower "standard of living" than they would have in the USA\etc.
[1] Yes, this is a touch sarcastic: But if people feel that the country is so "racist" (as many describe the USA), then they are unlikely to want to bring people in who they feel would suffer from this "racism", if they be looking at what is best for the refugees, and so this factor should be take into account in coming to a conclusion...
30 Aug 2021, 3:32 am
Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I was listening to a podcast interview with political commentator David French earlier today where he brought up the concept of tribes, and showed how the concept applied in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and now Afghanistan.
One of the best conservative commentators working today, and always worth listening to, he's the only religious commentator that I like, and that can make a scripture based argument without me wanting to smack him. He writes at The Dispatch, which is totally worth the $10/m if you're looking to broaden your intellectual horizons.
I've got to remember these names. I tend to more stumble onto people than remember them. He struck me as compassionate, pragmatic and knowledgeable. Conservative but not particularly in line with how the Republican party seems to be headed, but I haven't followed enough to be sure of that. Broadening our horizons is always good.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
30 Aug 2021, 3:39 am
Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I was listening to a podcast interview with political commentator David French earlier today where he brought up the concept of tribes, and showed how the concept applied in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and now Afghanistan. In a very over-simplified nutshell, when the US went in Afghanistan, it became the strongest tribe in the region, and so smaller forces felt safe aligning with the US. But when the US leaves, the strongest tribe becomes someone else, and in Afghanistan's case that is the Taliban. It basically becomes self-preservation to re-align to the new strongest tribe.
He also talked about how we taught the Afghans to fight in reliance on US methods, with US air support, US contractors, and US communications and logistical systems. But all that pulled out with our service men, leaving the Afghan troops unable to fight in the way they had been taught (if I am summarizing correctly).
He had very harsh words for two things:
1. Anyone claiming the Afghan troops are cowards. For twenty years they spilled their blood in our battles, incurring exponentially higher losses than American troops did.
2. Americans who complain about the refugees the US evacuates. He first wanted it to be clear that there is a difference between evacuating people and bringing them into our country, but on the later he felt that most Americans fail to understand just how much we owe these people.
I have left a lot out, but he's worth listening to. Most of the things he said made a lot of sense.
He also talked about how we taught the Afghans to fight in reliance on US methods, with US air support, US contractors, and US communications and logistical systems. But all that pulled out with our service men, leaving the Afghan troops unable to fight in the way they had been taught (if I am summarizing correctly).
He had very harsh words for two things:
1. Anyone claiming the Afghan troops are cowards. For twenty years they spilled their blood in our battles, incurring exponentially higher losses than American troops did.
2. Americans who complain about the refugees the US evacuates. He first wanted it to be clear that there is a difference between evacuating people and bringing them into our country, but on the later he felt that most Americans fail to understand just how much we owe these people.
I have left a lot out, but he's worth listening to. Most of the things he said made a lot of sense.
Your mention of the training the soldiers there received was brought up a couple of weeks ago in the "Wall street Journal" (I linked a portion in viewtopic.php?f=21&t=399299&p=8843438#p8843438), and does sound quite probable.
With regards to the 2 points you highlighted, I'd certainly agree with the first, whilst the second is "interesting"...
What is the best option for those evacuated from Afghanistan?
Settled in the USA, whose culture (and language) differs greatly from their country of origin (and, importantly, which a large portion of the population considers is "systemically racist", resulting in these refugees being placed into a hostile sistuation\nation [1])
OR
Settled in a 3rd party country whose culture is closer to their own (and so less "hostile"), but with a lower "standard of living" than they would have in the USA\etc.
[1] Yes, this is a touch sarcastic: But if people feel that the country is so "racist" (as many describe the USA), then they are unlikely to want to bring people in who they feel would suffer from this "racism", if they be looking at what is best for the refugees, and so this factor should be take into account in coming to a conclusion...
My personal leaning is that the refugees should have some choice about where they go, and we should not decide for any unique individual or any group as a whole what factors outweigh other factors. I'm not going to get into a weird discussion where we try to decide how racism could affect their experience and how it should be factored in. That isn't for us. That is for them.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
30 Aug 2021, 3:44 am
DW_a_mom wrote:
He struck me as compassionate, pragmatic and knowledgeable. Conservative but not particularly in line with how the Republican party seems to be headed, but I haven't followed enough to be sure of that. Broadening our horizons is always good.
French is interesting, he's very polarizing among conservatives because he was Never Trump from day 1, and is seen by the more extreme elements as being too accommodating to liberals, but to my mind that just enhances his credibility. He's also very willing to criticize his own side, in fact that's been kind of his beat for quite some time, the Republican that calls out other Republicans for not living up to their own standards, particularly evangelicals. He got on my radar many years back because he was the president of FIRE, a free speech advocacy group that takes on colleges over their speech codes and other restrictions on expression, but he's also clashed with the anti-CRT guys who are pushing (poorly designed) laws to try and break up the mono-culture in education. I'm actually a bit against him on that one, I think the imperfect solution shouldn't obscure the real problem being addressed, but as always he makes good arguments.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
30 Aug 2021, 3:48 am
Brictoria wrote:
Settled in the USA, whose culture (and language) differs greatly from their country of origin (and, importantly, which a large portion of the population considers is "systemically racist", resulting in these refugees being placed into a hostile sistuation\nation [1])
Ahh yes, the woke paradox, or I should say, one of the woke paradoxes. Others include "the police are racist, give them more power over speech!", or a recently departed favorite, "the government is run by a fascist dictator, better make sure no one else has guns".
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
30 Aug 2021, 3:59 am
DW_a_mom wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Well that was 20 years, thousands of lives, and billions of dollars well spent. I'm going to throttle the next person I meet who advocates US military-supported regime change.
The idea that we could remove a regime without having to nation build was a foolish fantasy.
For perspective however, I will leave you with thoughts on all the women and girls who were able to get an education and start careers in the last 20 years, all the Afghan families that had 20 years to build and thrive, and the hope that it isn’t returning to exactly the place it once was. There are many people out there grateful for the opportunities the 20 years brought them. It helped me when I was reminded of this, at least.
Still, we do need to learn as a country not to fall into the fantasy that we can just take out a regime and magically change a nation’s course. It doesn’t work like that. Our hubris continually gets the better of us, and it’s time we just stopped.
The 20 year taster away from incredibly restrictive and hard-line Islamic ideology might start causing uproar once the novelty of Taliban rule wears off hopefully. With luck the last 20 years have made the every day Afghan much stronger and better prepared to opposing those said hard-line Islamic restrictions.
I have the sneaking feeling this is based more on naive hope and wishful thinking than actual evidence though.
30 Aug 2021, 4:02 am
Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
He struck me as compassionate, pragmatic and knowledgeable. Conservative but not particularly in line with how the Republican party seems to be headed, but I haven't followed enough to be sure of that. Broadening our horizons is always good.
French is interesting, he's very polarizing among conservatives because he was Never Trump from day 1, and is seen by the more extreme elements as being too accommodating to liberals, but to my mind that just enhances his credibility. He's also very willing to criticize his own side, in fact that's been kind of his beat for quite some time, the Republican that calls out other Republicans for not living up to their own standards, particularly evangelicals. He got on my radar many years back because he was the president of FIRE, a free speech advocacy group that takes on colleges over their speech codes and other restrictions on expression, but he's also clashed with the anti-CRT guys who are pushing (poorly designed) laws to try and break up the mono-culture in education. I'm actually a bit against him on that one, I think the imperfect solution shouldn't obscure the real problem being addressed, but as always he makes good arguments.
I've long had a hard time understanding how anyone who knows their Bible could so quickly fall behind Trump (I know intellectually how it happened, but ...). I did get the impression that French is very much formed by his faith, but more in the same way I've been formed by mine, leaning into a more open and accepting world, rather than away from it, and compassion being central.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
30 Aug 2021, 4:09 am
Nades wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Well that was 20 years, thousands of lives, and billions of dollars well spent. I'm going to throttle the next person I meet who advocates US military-supported regime change.
The idea that we could remove a regime without having to nation build was a foolish fantasy.
For perspective however, I will leave you with thoughts on all the women and girls who were able to get an education and start careers in the last 20 years, all the Afghan families that had 20 years to build and thrive, and the hope that it isn’t returning to exactly the place it once was. There are many people out there grateful for the opportunities the 20 years brought them. It helped me when I was reminded of this, at least.
Still, we do need to learn as a country not to fall into the fantasy that we can just take out a regime and magically change a nation’s course. It doesn’t work like that. Our hubris continually gets the better of us, and it’s time we just stopped.
The 20 year taster away from incredibly restrictive and hard-line Islamic ideology might start causing uproar once the novelty of Taliban rule wears off hopefully. With luck the last 20 years have made the every day Afghan much stronger and better prepared to opposing those said hard-line Islamic restrictions.
I have the sneaking feeling this is based more on naive hope and wishful thinking than actual evidence though.
I think what gives the most hope for Afghan citizens is that the Taliban leadership today cares a lot more about being able to interact with the rest of the world in a productive way than the Taliban did 20 years ago. That need for some level of world acceptance will temper their positions. However, the country remains divided into smaller localities that won't always have local leaders on the same page as the national leaders, and that is going to continue to make any positive changes splotchy at best.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
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30 Aug 2021, 9:54 am
Off Topic
Dox47 wrote:
French is interesting, he's very polarizing among conservatives because he was Never Trump from day 1, and is seen by the more extreme elements as being too accommodating to liberals, but to my mind that just enhances his credibility, but he's also clashed with the anti-CRT guys who are pushing (poorly designed) laws to try and break up the mono-culture in education. I'm actually a bit against him on that one, I think the imperfect solution shouldn't obscure the real problem being addressed, but as always he makes good arguments.
Should Public Schools Ban Critical Race Theory? A debate between Christopher Rufo and David French.
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It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
31 Aug 2021, 9:13 am
Quote:
An American woman who remains trapped in Afghanistan has told of her fears after the last U.S. plane left the country.
The woman, a former interpreter for the U.S. military, spoke to CNN's Chris Cuomo from Kabul on Monday night.
Identified only as Sara (which is not her real name), she told of her failed attempts to flee the country after the Taliban's takeover.
Now that the last U.S. troops have withdrawn, she said she's lost hope she will be able to leave.
"I just found out that they left, and I was just silent for a little while," Sara told Cuomo. "And I just went, walked around the rooms, and I saw the young kids are sleeping and they have no clue what happened this morning, that the last flight is gone and we're left behind."
She added: "It's heartbreaking to see that with all that's going on, no one heard us, that we are in danger and we need to be safe.
"I just don't even know what to say to you. Whoever was trying to help me and support me, even they did not tell me that... this is the last flight. So I still had hope that we would leave. If not all of them, at least some kids and some mothers who had disabled kids. I had hope for them."
The woman, a former interpreter for the U.S. military, spoke to CNN's Chris Cuomo from Kabul on Monday night.
Identified only as Sara (which is not her real name), she told of her failed attempts to flee the country after the Taliban's takeover.
Now that the last U.S. troops have withdrawn, she said she's lost hope she will be able to leave.
"I just found out that they left, and I was just silent for a little while," Sara told Cuomo. "And I just went, walked around the rooms, and I saw the young kids are sleeping and they have no clue what happened this morning, that the last flight is gone and we're left behind."
She added: "It's heartbreaking to see that with all that's going on, no one heard us, that we are in danger and we need to be safe.
"I just don't even know what to say to you. Whoever was trying to help me and support me, even they did not tell me that... this is the last flight. So I still had hope that we would leave. If not all of them, at least some kids and some mothers who had disabled kids. I had hope for them."
Source: https://www.newsweek.com/american-woman-trapped-afghanistan-stunned-last-us-plane-leaves-safe-1624443
01 Sep 2021, 1:52 pm
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Obama said it best; "Elections have consequences".
I’ll take President Biden making a few logistical fumbles in a foreign country over all we likely would have seen with Trump.
It's always Trump with you people.
Trump would never have caused this disaster. He wouldn't have given away billions in military hardware to the Taliban, abandoned American citizens in Afghanistan, or surrendered our exiting airbase first. What I want to know is why congress isn't doing their duty and charging Joe with dereliction of duty or at least gross negligence? Oh yeah, he's one of them. Thats Why.
But of course somehow its always Trump who is at fault.
