Reddit r/PoliticalDiscussion supportive of Biden/Afghanistan

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The_Walrus
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16 Aug 2021, 12:21 am

VegetableMan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I'll give Biden credit for a good decision. We should have been out of there over a decade ago.


I'll give him credit for actually going ahead with the pull out, but I'll blame the hell out of him for the shoddy execution.


No argument there. The bottom line is those in power don't care about the people in Afghanistan any more than the care about the people in Syria. But we do need to get out of these countries one way or another. In the longterm, the consequences will be far more catastrophic if we continue this pattern of perpetual war.

:lol:
What do you think could possibly be worse than what we’re seeing right now?

At some point this goes past ignorance and into outright evil, frankly. You certainly can’t claim that you care about Afghans or Syrians given how you cheer on their deaths and attack anyone who says we should protect them.


You have very little context about the past nearly seven decades of military escapades in the ME, nor do you understand the continued ramifications of the perpetuation of these policies. I understand these all too well because I have actually studied them for nearly 15 years. Getting out of these conflicts is paramount to U.S. survival. It's not a model that can be sustained for much longer.

I've tried to educate you, but to no avail. You have nothing to offer but the propaganda you've been fed and your apparent naivete and gullibility.

:lol:

You really want to try playing the “I know about things” card?

Someone like Viper could play the “I know about things” card with credibility because he actually worked in the field.

Someone who doesn’t know the difference between the Mujhadeen and the Taliban can’t play that card. Someone who thinks the occupation of Afghanistan was motivated by lithium can’t play that card. You’ve repeatedly admitted that you don’t even know the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, which is fundamental to the politics of your own country. When you struggle to comprehend the most basic parts of your own country’s politics, what makes you think you understand anything about other countries?

The simple fact is that I have never seen you demonstrate even a typical understanding of the Middle East, much less an expert level understanding. Almost everything meaningful you say is easily disproven. You bluster into these conversations with the false confidence of someone of someone at the painful end of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You say something that’s plainly and verifiably wrong, then when someone points out your mistake, you call them names and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:



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16 Aug 2021, 12:41 am

Dox47 wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
The lack of any word from leadership (either government or military) certainly doesn't improve the perception of those responsible for this.


Biden taking off for a week at Camp David while this is going in is just unfathomable to me, on the optics if nothing else.

At least we have a reponse from the White House press secretary regarding what is occurring...
Image



Dox47
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16 Aug 2021, 1:26 am

The_Walrus wrote:
... and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:


I don't know about the rest of all that, but listening to Glenn Greenwald is excellent advice, he's practically the only honest journalist working these days. I've followed him since the W era, it's hilarious that liberals think he's changed, he's been the same anti war anti surveillance state voice the whole time, they're just mad cause he's consistent and they're not.


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16 Aug 2021, 6:54 am

The_Walrus wrote:
You’ve repeatedly admitted that you don’t even know the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, which is fundamental to the politics of your own country.

I think you misunderstand him. He sees no difference between those parties because he believes both to be shills for Israel, however he signals that using coded language. In my experience most Americans who talk that way have the same motivation.


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The_Walrus
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16 Aug 2021, 6:57 am

Dox47 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
... and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:


I don't know about the rest of all that, but listening to Glenn Greenwald is excellent advice, he's practically the only honest journalist working these days. I've followed him since the W era, it's hilarious that liberals think he's changed, he's been the same anti war anti surveillance state voice the whole time, they're just mad cause he's consistent and they're not.

I have no idea about “liberals” and wouldn’t use the term the way you use it (I draw a distinction between liberals and leftists, and between either of those groups and generic Democrats), but the guy’s pretty much always been a kook. He has a tendency to see conspiracy where incompetence is a better explanation, while arguing (reasonably) that his own fuck-ups are just that and his team isn’t very co-ordinated. Even his reporting on PRISM was hyperbolic. I do think he held the Trump administration to a much lower standard than the Bush and Obama administrations. I think he’s fallen into the trap of enjoying bashing 1) the US and 2) Democrats, without regard for whether he’s actually advocating for good things.

You get much better IR reporting from places like Foreign Policy, The Diplomat, Foreign Affairs, International Affairs, the Economist, the quality newspapers, and even some new media like Vox. Goes without saying that the BBC and the wire services are also great, although I’ve found the BBC’s emphasis in the past few years to be a bit too domestic.



The_Walrus
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16 Aug 2021, 7:26 am

MaxE wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
You’ve repeatedly admitted that you don’t even know the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, which is fundamental to the politics of your own country.

I think you misunderstand him. He sees no difference between those parties because he believes both to be shills for Israel, however he signals that using coded language. In my experience most Americans who talk that way have the same motivation.

I think VM’s position is slightly more nuanced than that. He’s not particularly interested in Israel, it might be on his laundry list but it isn’t the top item. I think it’s possible he holds some casual antisemitic views (a lot of people do, including people who are otherwise upstanding and ordinary) but I don’t think it’s at all his motivating force. It’s well below his trans exclusionary views, for example.

I think VM judges the political parties on basically two issues:

- do they support massive wealth redistribution on a par with Norway or Finland?

- do they support an isolationist foreign policy?

And, OK, if you’re deciding who to vote for, then choosing those two metrics is a valid personal choice. It’s when you’re genuinely ignorant of the spectrum of opinions within both parties and the increasingly large gulf between them that I think someone loses credibility. Like, if you want wealth redistribution, there’s a limit to how much the federal government can do but the Democrats will nearly always do more of it than the Republicans will. And claiming that Biden and Clinton are the same on foreign policy is just completely wrong; Biden consistently opposed Obama’s military action, even arguing against the killing of Osama Bin Laden, to the extent that Obama seriously considered replacing him with Clinton. Biden is a dove and it is currently killing Afghans.

I actually have some sympathy for a priori isolationism. Dox might remember that I used to even advocate against the right to personal self-defence. I was a child of Iraq, and that made me a militant pacifist who thought the military and the police were inherently evil institutions. Then ISIS happened and that changed pretty quickly.

VM’s had the same “war is bad” realisation that most people have, and reached the same extreme conclusion that I did as a teenager. He just never had the “actually there are bad people who we can stop and save lives” realisation. He thinks of military action in purely deontological terms, without considering consequences. War is bad, therefore we should never ever do it. If someone invades Syria or Afghanistan or Poland and starts shooting people, well, we just have to let them do it.

Dox is right to say that we can’t feasibly stop the Uighur genocide, which sucks and should make everyone’s blood boil at the injustice. Any invasion of China would end with unpredictable consequences that would probably be extremely bad. It would be uncharted territory with a realistic chance of total civilisational collapse.

But we could feasibly have kept most of the Afghans safe from the Taliban. Biden’s rushed decision to withdraw forces by an arbitrary symbolic date, rather than upon the achievement of defined and measurable objectives, has led to thousands of preventable deaths, at least hundreds of thousands of displaced people, millions of women being subject to virulently misogynist paternalistic control of their entire lives, and all of Afghanistan becoming a place where art and music are capital offences.

Ahem.



VegetableMan
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16 Aug 2021, 8:53 am

The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I'll give Biden credit for a good decision. We should have been out of there over a decade ago.


I'll give him credit for actually going ahead with the pull out, but I'll blame the hell out of him for the shoddy execution.


No argument there. The bottom line is those in power don't care about the people in Afghanistan any more than the care about the people in Syria. But we do need to get out of these countries one way or another. In the longterm, the consequences will be far more catastrophic if we continue this pattern of perpetual war.

:lol:
What do you think could possibly be worse than what we’re seeing right now?

At some point this goes past ignorance and into outright evil, frankly. You certainly can’t claim that you care about Afghans or Syrians given how you cheer on their deaths and attack anyone who says we should protect them.


You have very little context about the past nearly seven decades of military escapades in the ME, nor do you understand the continued ramifications of the perpetuation of these policies. I understand these all too well because I have actually studied them for nearly 15 years. Getting out of these conflicts is paramount to U.S. survival. It's not a model that can be sustained for much longer.

I've tried to educate you, but to no avail. You have nothing to offer but the propaganda you've been fed and your apparent naivete and gullibility.

:lol:

You really want to try playing the “I know about things” card?

Someone like Viper could play the “I know about things” card with credibility because he actually worked in the field.

Someone who doesn’t know the difference between the Mujhadeen and the Taliban can’t play that card. Someone who thinks the occupation of Afghanistan was motivated by lithium can’t play that card. You’ve repeatedly admitted that you don’t even know the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, which is fundamental to the politics of your own country. When you struggle to comprehend the most basic parts of your own country’s politics, what makes you think you understand anything about other countries?

The simple fact is that I have never seen you demonstrate even a typical understanding of the Middle East, much less an expert level understanding. Almost everything meaningful you say is easily disproven. You bluster into these conversations with the false confidence of someone of someone at the painful end of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You say something that’s plainly and verifiably wrong, then when someone points out your mistake, you call them names and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:


This coming from the guy who didn't even know we were arming terrorists in Syria, believes Joe Biden is a social Democrat and left wing. I've watched that Party swing right all my adult life and I've seen the damage it has done to this country. There is no longer and fundamental difference between the two major parties, which is evidenced by the complete continuity between Dem and Pub administrations. You've provided nothing to debunk that.

You walk lockstep with corporate propaganda all day long. You demonize a war veteran who served two tours of duty in Iraq as a medic and understands what these wars are really about, and now speaks out about them.

You're a joke!


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VegetableMan
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16 Aug 2021, 9:02 am

Dox47 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
... and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:


I don't know about the rest of all that, but listening to Glenn Greenwald is excellent advice, he's practically the only honest journalist working these days. I've followed him since the W era, it's hilarious that liberals think he's changed, he's been the same anti war anti surveillance state voice the whole time, they're just mad cause he's consistent and they're not.


Greenwald is one a of very small group of actual journalists left. It's no wonder Walrus wouldn't like him.


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16 Aug 2021, 10:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I'll give Biden credit for a good decision. We should have been out of there over a decade ago.
Perhaps you haven’t been following the news, but over a thousand Afghans have been killed and hundreds of thousands displaced by the Taliban.  How would you feel if Joe Biden did nothing to stop an armed gang kicking you out of your home and chasing you to Canada?  There is no way to defend this as a good decision if you value Afghan lives.  It is a profoundly evil decision.
With all due respect ... Joe Biden is the President of the United States of America, not Afghanistan.  Ashraf Ghani is (was) the president of Afghanistan.  If an armed gang was trying to kick me out of my house and/or chase me to Canada, I would expect the local police to get involved and resolve the situation long before Mr. Biden even heard of it.

Which of these is the greater evil?

• Mr. Biden's decision to save American lives.

• Mr. Ghani's decision to save his own life.

• The decisions made by the Taliban to murder infidels.


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16 Aug 2021, 10:18 am

Fnord wrote:

Which of these is the greater evil?

• Mr. Biden's decision to save American lives.


The problem with this point is that he withdrew troops\surrendered space to the Taliban before evacuating the non-combatants\locals who had been assisting the americans, putting those people's lives at risk...



The_Walrus
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16 Aug 2021, 10:38 am

Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I'll give Biden credit for a good decision. We should have been out of there over a decade ago.
Perhaps you haven’t been following the news, but over a thousand Afghans have been killed and hundreds of thousands displaced by the Taliban.  How would you feel if Joe Biden did nothing to stop an armed gang kicking you out of your home and chasing you to Canada?  There is no way to defend this as a good decision if you value Afghan lives.  It is a profoundly evil decision.
With all due respect ... Joe Biden is the President of the United States of America, not Afghanistan.  Ashraf Ghani is (was) the president of Afghanistan.  If an armed gang was trying to kick me out of my house and/or chase me to Canada, I would expect the local police to get involved and resolve the situation long before Mr. Biden even heard of it.

Which of these is the greater evil?

• Mr. Biden's decision to save American lives.

• Mr. Ghani's decision to save his own life.

• The decisions made by the Taliban to murder infidels.

Evidently the third one, followed by the first one.

Ghani has run around the country attempting to rally opposition to the Taliban. He has been unsuccessful. He only fled after the leaders of the Tajik and Uzbek minorities had fled. Certainly he has some responsibility.

Biden, along with Johnson and Macron, just sat around and allowed this to happen. I don’t know if Ghani tried to get their help. They may have had trouble acquiring domestic support for the necessary action, but I don’t believe any of them even tried. Biden ended up sending more troops to assist with evacuation than had been in Afghanistan for years - if he’d just left the remaining forces there then they’d have been able to react to the Taliban’s advances.

I don’t think American lives are worth more or less than Afghan lives.

Taking the US presence out of Afghanistan is the equivalent of defunding your local police force.



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16 Aug 2021, 11:14 am

The_Walrus wrote:
[...] Taking the US presence out of Afghanistan is the equivalent of defunding your local police force.
Again, Mr. Biden is the president of the United States of America, not the United States of Afghanistan; and unless someone sneaked Afghanistan in as our 51st state, America is no more responsible for what happens in Afghanistan than any other sovereign nation, including yours.


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The_Walrus
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16 Aug 2021, 11:55 am

VegetableMan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I'll give Biden credit for a good decision. We should have been out of there over a decade ago.


I'll give him credit for actually going ahead with the pull out, but I'll blame the hell out of him for the shoddy execution.


No argument there. The bottom line is those in power don't care about the people in Afghanistan any more than the care about the people in Syria. But we do need to get out of these countries one way or another. In the longterm, the consequences will be far more catastrophic if we continue this pattern of perpetual war.

:lol:
What do you think could possibly be worse than what we’re seeing right now?

At some point this goes past ignorance and into outright evil, frankly. You certainly can’t claim that you care about Afghans or Syrians given how you cheer on their deaths and attack anyone who says we should protect them.


You have very little context about the past nearly seven decades of military escapades in the ME, nor do you understand the continued ramifications of the perpetuation of these policies. I understand these all too well because I have actually studied them for nearly 15 years. Getting out of these conflicts is paramount to U.S. survival. It's not a model that can be sustained for much longer.

I've tried to educate you, but to no avail. You have nothing to offer but the propaganda you've been fed and your apparent naivete and gullibility.

:lol:

You really want to try playing the “I know about things” card?

Someone like Viper could play the “I know about things” card with credibility because he actually worked in the field.

Someone who doesn’t know the difference between the Mujhadeen and the Taliban can’t play that card. Someone who thinks the occupation of Afghanistan was motivated by lithium can’t play that card. You’ve repeatedly admitted that you don’t even know the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, which is fundamental to the politics of your own country. When you struggle to comprehend the most basic parts of your own country’s politics, what makes you think you understand anything about other countries?

The simple fact is that I have never seen you demonstrate even a typical understanding of the Middle East, much less an expert level understanding. Almost everything meaningful you say is easily disproven. You bluster into these conversations with the false confidence of someone of someone at the painful end of the Dunning-Kruger effect. You say something that’s plainly and verifiably wrong, then when someone points out your mistake, you call them names and tell them to only listen to Glenn Greenwald :lol:


This coming from the guy who didn't even know we were arming terrorists in Syria,

You weren’t. You were arming moderates. The issue is that when you sell arms or give away arms, you can’t control what the other party ultimately does with them. Some rebels gave some equipment to al-Nusra in exchange for their safety. This was apparently in violation of their training. I don’t think that can be reasonably characterised as the US arming al-Nusra.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mide ... HO20150926

There are plenty of other stories of terrorists getting hold of American arms, but that doesn’t mean America has been arming them.

Quote:
believes Joe Biden is a social Democrat and left wing.

He is. I’ve evidenced this point to you in the past; Biden’s policies are in line with social democracies around the world and make him the most left-wing American president since FDR.

Quote:
There is no longer and fundamental difference between the two major parties,

Incorrect - there is a very sizeable gap between the two parties and it is growing all the time. Twenty years ago, there was considerable overlap between the two parties. The most right-wing elected Democrats were to the left of the most left-wing elected Republicans. Now, there’s a huge gap between, on one hand, Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema on the right wing of the Democratic Party, and Mitt Romney, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins on the left of the Republican Party. The last time Congress was this polarised was during Reconstruction. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... ver-since/

Ideology is complex and hard to measure but we are definitely seeing a trend towards greater partisanship I.e Democrats and Republicans are becoming less likely to work together: https://paulrader-42650.medium.com/how- ... ab55a614f5

Quote:
is evidenced by the complete continuity between Dem and Pub administrations. You've provided nothing to debunk that.

Actually, I believe last time we had this conservation you admitted that I was right.

Your claim of “complete continuity between administrations” is again relatively easy to debunk. For example, this article sets out ways in which Biden has differed from Trump: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/28/poli ... index.html
- of course it’s worth noting that the achievements section glosses over some things (I don’t really put any stock on the jobs numbers because of the pandemic) but it still sets out where Biden has diverged from Trump in terms of policy.

Here is a similar rundown of Trump’s first 100 days - this is a bit more objective and is framed around whether Trump has kept promises, as opposed to what he has done: https://www.npr.org/2017/04/24/52015916 ... 9129130363

I had trouble finding high quality coverage of Obama’s first 100 days that was still available online, but eventually I did find this which sets out several major breaks with Bush (some of which ultimately fell through, but most of which didn’t): https://www.hindustantimes.com/world/ob ... PrVCL.html


Quote:
You walk lockstep with corporate propaganda all day long.

False. I’m a public sector employee.

Quote:
You demonize a war veteran who served two tours of duty in Iraq as a medic and understands what these wars are really about, and now speaks out about them.

I don’t glorify bad people just because they’re war veterans. If someone defends foreign dictators, has a long record of homophobia and transphobia, and attracts the support of all the worst Americans (David Duke, Billy Graham, Richard Spencer, and Steve Bannon, for example)… yeah, I’ll happily attack them. Tulsi Gabbard is a bad person and I’m glad she’s out of politics.

Quote:
You're a joke!

Bless your heart :lol:

So, I make that seven claims. Five of them demonstrably untrue. One is true, but frankly paints me in quite a flattering light. Another is an unverifiable opinion.

None of these things are deep mysteries. You don’t need to be a genius to identify the differences between the Democrats and the Republicans. They are made very clear and loudly advertised by both sides. I would suggest that anyone who cannot identify them, or thinks that they do not matter, has a below-average understanding of American politics. Probably in the bottom quarter of Americans, certainly the bottom third.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong. It’s up to you to prove it. I have made a lot of claims in this post, including those linked to in an NPR article about Trump’s first 100 days and a CNN article about Biden’s first 100 days. Debunk a claim I have made with reference to reliable sources, or debunk a claim made in one of those two articles, again with reference to reliable sources. As almost everything I have said has been in contradiction to something you have said, I am only asking you to substantiate your own beliefs.



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16 Aug 2021, 12:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
[...] Taking the US presence out of Afghanistan is the equivalent of defunding your local police force.
Again, Mr. Biden is the president of the United States of America, not the United States of Afghanistan; and unless someone sneaked Afghanistan in as our 51st state, America is no more responsible for what happens in Afghanistan than any other sovereign nation, including yours.

Did… did you not read my previous post? The one where I said that Boris Johnson, Prime Minister of the UK, and Emmanuel Macron, President of France, share in Biden’s responsibility? Perhaps you could add the Koreans.

I do not believe any other country has the capacity to act unilaterally in the region without making things worse. To clarify, I believe China and Russia have the capacity, but I do not expect them to be benevolent, while India and maybe Pakistan have the capacity but would make things worse due to regional tensions. The Saudis probably have the technology but not the experience, and again their presence would likely inflame the Iranians (and I don’t trust them to oppose the Taliban). Germany and Japan haven’t been active enough since 1945, and Japan in particular has constitutional issues, but could probably scrape together a defence force if needed.

So at a push, that’s eleven countries who might have had the military capacity to prop up the Afghan government. The next countries - Italy, Brazil, Israel, Canada and Australia - all spend roughly or less than half of what France does on their military and don’t have the same capability.

So yes, Britain and France could and should have stepped up to fill the void left by America. Perhaps you could add Germany, Japan, and South Korea, although I am not sure any of them could realistically have done so. But more importantly, the US shouldn’t have left that void in the first place!



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16 Aug 2021, 12:46 pm

↑ There.  THAT is was I needed to see (except for that last sentence).  Thank you.

In other threads (where did they go?), there is much unwarranted America-bashing and Biden-blaming without regard to the actions (or inactions) of any other country, and I am virtually sick of it.

America did not need to be there in the first place.


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16 Aug 2021, 3:19 pm



Duh, Not Unlike A Small Group
of So-Called 'Spreadnecks'

Coming Close to Taking

Control of Our Capital

And Thwarting the

Democratic Process
Apparently The Biden
Administration And Others

Underestimated the Support

For 'Trump' In Afghanistan too

In Terms of REAL TOXIC PATRIARCHY;

Of Course Against Women and Others Who

Do Not Fit The 'Religious' Mold of Long Term Tradition...

As By Very Definition Tradition Excludes What's Not in the Old Moldy Mold....

Yet Of Course

Now i Am

Conservative

Enough to Understand

This Liberal Truth Easily

Just By Actually Interacting

With the Heart Beat of Folks

From Other Countries Day-to-Day...
Off-of-Spread-Sheet-and-Power-Point Lighting...

Lots of Folks 'Over THere,' Male And Female, Never
Wanna See Women Work or Go To School and Stay
ALL COVERED UP CATTLE TO BE SOLD BRANDED
AND BRED IN BONDAGE, SAME OLD DAMNED WAY;

True, No Different than the OLD TRADITIONAL FOOLS
OVER HERE Who Pine Away Still For The Days Before Women

Even

Got the

Ability to

Vote and

Control Their

Own Reproductive

Freedom Destinies AS THEY DO NOW...

ALL IT TAKES IS ONE WEDGE ISSUE TO SLAVE 'EM SAME...

It's True We Have Already Proven Just How Close We

Are As A Religion of a 3rd World Country Already

Where i LiVE iN Florida; Something Much

Worse than 'Suicide Bombers, Overall,'

Sending Children Unmasked into

Deadly Pandemic Schools

For '5th

Avenue'

Fare of

Promises

Younger and Younger
As Young Adults Are
Actually Pandemic Dying Now

In Trump Town Promised, '5th Avenue USA'...
YeP iN Deep South Panhandle Ways of Churches...



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