Column: Larry Elder is the Black face of white supremacy.

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Is anyone posting in this thread a member of that community?

I don't think so....

Remarkable how the first people to usually cry racism at the first opportunity react when a minority has an opinion they don't like, isn't it?

Is racism somehow not racist when it comes from a minority? If, say, a black cop racially profiles other black people, is that okay because they have the same skin color?

Not if they are calling themselves the names...

I didn't say anything about name calling, I said profiling, which in this context means making assumptions about them based on their race. That you're not giving me an outright no here is concerning, I think racism is never acceptable myself, no qualifications needed.

I think the reactions are more nuanced than that, personally, but the truth is everyone regardless of politics is a work in progress, and it is difficult for any of us to see our own inconsistencies. Nuance takes time and effort to dig into and understand, in a world where many people believe the only way anything will ever change is to create clear lines and confrontation.

The questions of who Elder is, why he believes as he does, and how liberals should discuss him while attempting to reconcile his political positions with their desire to create a post racist society, are something we could spend years on. And, honestly, I would never feel comfortable doing that without members of the involved communities participating.

Short term, I will simply remind people that I believe the use of the term is inappropriate in this particular time and place.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 19 Sep 2021, 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

To me, if none of us talking in this thread belong to the black community, there is no good reason for terminology like Uncle Tom to appear on these pages at all. It isn't for us to speculate on how someone would be perceived by a community none of us belong to, or to tell them what terminology should or should not exist within their community. Keep it simple, keep the phrase off the table all together.

Do you think they'd split hairs if someone else started slinging racial slurs around (and Uncle Tom is definitely a racial slur)? As I pointed out, it's extra egregious given the political alignment here, both of the posters arguing that it's okay to use come from the woke end of the spectrum, so in theory they really ought to know better than to slur someone as a race traitor, which is an antiquated and racist idea in and of itself.

You responded before I added one more sentence: "And, honestly, I would never feel comfortable doing that without members of the involved communities participating."

I think my answer to your question is in a post I wrote that crossed yours in cyberspace. I don't want to see them use the term or engage in discussion about who might use it. The how or when it might ever be OK isn't for us to decide, IMHO. I think part of being "woke" is to know when to step aside.

One of the things I've become aware of in the past year is just how uncomfortable it is for minority groups when people who aren't members, who don't know their issues and feelings first hand, try to make the case for them, or to solve their issues for them. As outsiders wanting to be allies, our job is to listen more than to do. To take the time to actually understand, to give them the space to advocate and speak for themselves. By grabbing the microphone we implicitly imply that we know better, that we could do the job better. It's tough for someone like me, I almost always think I could do certain things better than anyone else, but there is a whole lot of hurt to the people I'm inadvertently stepping on when I act on that.

To extend that to this setting, where everyone loves the intellectual tangle, some discussions simply aren't ours to have. IMHO.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 19 Sep 2021, 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hmm, see, a large part of my objection to wokeness is actually these kinds of attempts to make special carve outs and rules for who gets to say what, or if something is racist or not depending on who said it, regardless of intent. To me, it's just as racist for a black person to call another Uncle Tom as it is when someone of a different race does it, as the term is itself racist, it only applies to black people and is used to attempt to police acceptable opinion within the group, you can't really deracialize it, a white conservative is just a conservative, but a black one gets abused with this epithet. A number of my black partners over the years had to deal with similar taunts, though it was more of the Oreo variety used on black people who excel in school or don't speak in vernacular, who aren't culturally black enough for whoever is doing the taunting. I don't think I have to be black to condemn that sort of behavior, or to call it out as racist, as a black person should be allowed to choose how they culturally present themself.

I absolutely agree with this.

But all the other issues ... Beyond stating that a term like Uncle Tom shouldn't be a part of this discussion in this place at this time, I'm not the right person to answer.

Let me say this: it makes me extremely uncomfortable to hear members of a community use words that are considered racist towards that community if used by anyone else. I understand intellectually that it's about control and ownership, but I'm still very uncomfortable. Will I ever say something? Most likely not. My hope is that period of time it takes to transition from using the word to own it and make peace with it, to throwing it permanently in the junkyard of history, will be relatively short. I can't relate to or understand why they want to use it, but I also don't feel comfortable telling them not to use the term. That would be like telling someone how to process and resolve their own hurts. Make no mistake, there is real pain in the black community from all the cumulative history they've had to deal with, and all the progress that does not yet exist. Best I can do is not add to it.

I would think that the only people who really should use terms like Oreo or Uncle Tom would be people who see themselves as meeting the description. Not just other members of the black community, but ones who actually might meet the description. However, since I'm not black, I don't see where I have a place in that discussion at all. The people I know and listen to in the community do NOT EVER use those words. I don't have the feeling it is considered OK. There is too much painful history there. But I can't be the one to state that or debate it. That is a question that belongs to a community I am not a member of.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 19 Sep 2021, 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

What I added to an earlier post that may have crossed in cyberspace:

One of the things I've become aware of in the past year is just how uncomfortable it is for minority groups when people who aren't members, who don't know their issues and feelings first hand, try to make the case for them, or to solve their issues for them. As outsiders wanting to be allies, our job is to listen more than to do. To take the time to actually understand, to give them the space to advocate and speak for themselves. By grabbing the microphone we implicitly imply that we know better, that we could do the job better. It's tough for someone like me, I almost always think I could do certain things better than anyone else, but there is a whole lot of hurt to the people I'm inadvertently stepping on when I act on that.

To extend that to this setting, where everyone loves the intellectual tangle, some discussions simply aren't ours to have. IMHO.

so we are not allowed to call a person what they by definition are then, check. i shall just have to print out the full definition and let people make up their own minds-

"a black man considered to be excessively obedient or servile to white people; a person regarded as betraying their cultural or social allegiance."
somebody tell me how Elder is NOT carrying the white [RICH] man's water for him? somebody please tell me how Elder is not systematically in league with an entire political party working against the good of his own people?

There is no need to use a word that a whole community is likely to consider offensive, no matter how well you think it fits. It is my understanding that the term is considered insensitive and offensive if you or I use it. I don't care how many times you define it; if we are considerate people, we do not use it.

As for it fits, IMHO, it is not our place to say. You aren't accusing him of betraying your culture; you are accusing him of betraying someone else's. Let those you believe are betrayed speak for themselves on it. Beginning and end of it to me.

Which one is a racial slur? do you mean this one
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... d=93059468
If its this one then African Americans have a reason to loathe the caricature (despite the author's attempt to pain him as "noble").

Or the cringey Disney Uncle Remus?
https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/song- ... mber-this/