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lumbering_grate
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28 Aug 2021, 10:41 pm

I'm 36, found out about my ASD about 10 years ago. It's been a struggle, but it's been satisfying to have context for all my disparate quirks and oddities. The thing I've been most examining lately are what I can only describe as "executive dysfunction cycles". For as long as I can remember I've always struggled with executive function, but at random times, and for random length periods, I would just wake up one day and I didn't struggle. I could just DO things. Even if they were things I didn't want to do, or hated, as if by magic I could grit my teeth and ACTUALLY get it done. These periods might last a day, a few weeks, once it lasted nearly 9 months. But they always come to an end and I'll be back to my dysfunctional baseline. Anyone else experience something similar? Does it have a name? Is it a common or known ASD symptom?

Sidenote: I also have major depressive disorder, which I've been on medication for for also about 10 years. I've been on several different SSRIs over the years, and while they help tremendously with my depression they've had seemingly no effect on my dysfunction cycles.



Mountain Goat
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29 Aug 2021, 4:45 am

Yes. I did not really have much of a problem in this area in my past. Only mildly like somehow I had to put in more effort then others to get the same task done?
But I have had several burnout/breakdowns (Not sure which) and since then I have had quite big issues.

What you describe as waking up oe day and they just go and you can do things is my experience in recovery after a burnout. It may take months or even a coupke of years, but one day one wakes up and the issues are gone. (I have learned now though to not do stupid things. In the past I would quit work when I had burnout which would be working a few weeks with burnout pushing myself to the max (Torture) which is the worst thing to do which makes things far, far worse (I did not know what was happening to me or how to explain it in the past, and I was told when I tried to describe it that "Everyone gets days like that and we need to struggle through" which is the worst advice for what I was facing that I could have).
Now when the executive function issues went, I would immediately look for work as I felt guilty (And needed the money as I had gone on no income for ages while in recovery (I was unable to explain to doctors so I didn't try so I could get no help, and I was not fit for looking for work so I could not get any benefits).... Not until the last major burnout or breakdown where I finally found out what was happening and it hit so hard that it scared me, and by then I was on the list to be assessed (Still on the list) that I had an idea via asking on this site what I was dealing with, and a few people said I needed help, so I went to an autism open day (Happened to be the day after I left my last job back in september 2019 where the open day was the day after) and it was the first time in my life that I was able to find people (Anyone!! Any other human being!! !) that knew what I had been going through and knew what I meant and understood what I was describing (I was describing the shutdowns which I had just found out what they were called). I was in a real mess to be honest. How I was able to drive was a miracle as I had enough difficulty in walking! (I had to use manual width perception rather then automatically just doing it) and I had moments when I was forgetting how to change gear etc.).

So yes. I do experience it and like you said, it may suddenly leave... But I have learned now through experience that if it takes a year to leave, then I need about three years before I can try to work again. (If only I had known this after the first burnout, I could have avoided having the other burnouts as the first few burnouts were mild as each burnout hit me harder then the one I had before, which is what scared me so much when I hit the last one in 2019.
The virus lockdowns have put stress on me which have pushed me back to the "Fragile" stage, and I am hoping to recover again from that.

The problem is I can get impatient and push myself and this is where I risk hitting deeper problems. I need to relax and not push myself and gently "Ease" my way back into "Life".


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FleaOfTheChill
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29 Aug 2021, 5:20 am

I struggle with executive functioning issues, but it hasn't always been a huge issue for me. My experience is similar to Mountain Goat's. My burnout issues impacted me on multiple levels, executive functioning included. I used to have 'little burnouts' where my executive functioning went to hell, I'd bounce back, push through things until I couldn't anymore, then boom, mini burnout again and it all went back to hell. I was also not diagnosed back then and didn't know that my burnouts were that. I just figured I should push through and that everyone felt that way, that I needed to suck it up and push on. Then I had my major burnout episode and things changed for me. I've learned to pace myself now and I still do have days/times that are better than others, but I also know that my not so good days are directly related to my stress levels and I now know better than to push it when I can do things or I will end up stressed out and need some recover time.

I'm not trying to suggest you're having burnout issues, but maybe stress related issues? You do mention depression, so that could be it. Is your mood better when you find you can do things? It could be the depression that is impacting you. I think for a lot of us, stress levels/mood seriously impact our general ability to function. That could be what you have going on. But as for standard disclaimer, take that with a grain of salt, I'm not professional, just a random person sitting in front of a laptop. :lol:



dirac
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15 Sep 2021, 7:04 am

Yes, I am also 36, and I also struggle with periods of more pronounced executive function difficulty. It is very frustrating, and for me I think these periods usually do coincide with periods of burnout. I also struggle with the tendency to get obsessed with or addicted to things, and I think this fuels the burnout.

I have come to conceptualize both the burnout and the executive difficulties as like a period of withdrawal symptoms. I don't know if this is the best way to think of the issue, but it is how I am currently understanding it. My most common addiction is to working, but this could be working on things for my job or on something related to one of my hobbies or "special interests". I suspect I just have a profoundly addictive personality, but I also have some health problems and I found out when I was younger that drugs and alcohol don't agree with me and I don't enjoy them. So it is work (or occasionally sugary foods) that I get addicted to.

I have reached the point, by repeatedly "pushing through" the struggle, that I can usually get my actual work done reasonably well unless I am in a more severe period of burnout / executive difficulty. But what causes the most trouble for me is that I am more socially impaired during these periods. I think the problem is that my emotions aren't "normal" when I feel this way and it causes me to miss a lot of cues and misinterpret messages and situations, and to generally be less able to accurately predict how I will come across to others. It is these social difficulties during these periods that have caused some of the most frustrating and disappointing outcomes for me.

However when I am in a more severe burnout then pushing through is definitely the wrong thing to do. Then I find that I need to take some time to do nothing. I think of it as "enforced boredom". It is difficult, but I have to prevent myself from reading and studying things on my cell phone and basically just sit there. Taking a lot of walks helps to kill the time. But usually after a couple days to a couple weeks (depending on severity) of this emptying of my mind I recover my abilities to think and work and manage my life.

I seem to go through these cycles maybe four to six times per year, but they are not all equally bad. The really bad ones occur maybe once or twice per year. I also have "mini-burnouts" a couple days each month where I can't get much done for a day, but then I take a day off and the next day I am fine.

I am really glad that you made this post, because I have been trying to explain this situation to people for several years and no one I've talked to has seemed to understand the situation. What everyone has posted here so far sounds very much like my experience.


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ezbzbfcg2
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15 Sep 2021, 7:23 am

Yep.



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15 Sep 2021, 8:08 am

I don't have this problem since I learned basics of human biochemistry and focus on being intentional about getting enough physical activity, direct sunlight, fresh air and proper nutrition. Our motivation, will power, mental strength are all result of a chain of chemical reactions and if there is one bottleneck, you experience some degree of clinical depression. What a lot of people don't realize is that depression is a very wide spectrum, first stage of depression is not actually feeling depressed in a sense most people think of it, but struggling with motivation and executive function.

There are still ups and downs to some degree, but even at lowest points I'm consistently on the above average level now.

When I experience period of "resistance" in the moment, when I supposed or consciously want to do something, but can't bring myself to start doing it, I do a short HIIT workout or breathing exercises. It works every time.



dirac
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15 Sep 2021, 8:42 am

badRobot wrote:
What a lot of people don't realize is that depression is a very wide spectrum, first stage of depression is not actually feeling depressed in a sense most people think of it, but struggling with motivation and executive function.

Yes, I totally agree with this! This is something that has just dawned on my this year. There is a therapy called "behavioral activation" that addresses just this, and I have found reading about this to be useful.

I also think it's important to notice that being too motivated can be just as harmful as being under-motivated or depressed. For me the cycle often starts with letting myself get too motivated (hence "obsessed or addicted"). The struggle is to balance the cycle, to head off over-motivation before it gets out of hand and to do things that increase motivation when it is lacking.

It is just a great challenge for me to do this because my motivation system seems to be like a chaotic system -- relatively small changes in input seem to produce relatively large changes in behavior.


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"In fact, my main conclusion after spending ten years of my life working on the TeX project is that software is hard. It’s harder than anything else I’ve ever had to do."
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“We need to enter the conversation willing to be wrong, willing to admit the limits of our own knowledge, willing to reconsider our evidence, sources, and premises. That is self-skepticism.”
― Patricia Roberts-Miller, Demagoguery and Democracy


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15 Sep 2021, 9:19 am

dirac wrote:
I also think it's important to notice that being too motivated can be just as harmful as being under-motivated or depressed. For me the cycle often starts with letting myself get too motivated (hence "obsessed or addicted"). The struggle is to balance the cycle, to head off over-motivation before it gets out of hand and to do things that increase motivation when it is lacking.

It is just a great challenge for me to do this because my motivation system seems to be like a chaotic system -- relatively small changes in input seem to produce relatively large changes in behavior.


I'm using my tendency to get obsessed to my advantage. Usually I have many projects in progress, some are more "boring", but pay the bills, others are hobby, or just something I enjoy doing and I use working on "fun" projects as a reward for putting at least 4 hours into "boring" projects. Otherwise I would completely neglect my "boring" stuff, then get bored of my "fun" stuff, my work ethic, reputation, etc. would go down the toilet.



dirac
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15 Sep 2021, 9:55 am

badRobot wrote:
I'm using my tendency to get obsessed to my advantage. Usually I have many projects in progress, some are more "boring", but pay the bills, others are hobby, or just something I enjoy doing and I use working on "fun" projects as a reward for putting at least 4 hours into "boring" projects. Otherwise I would completely neglect my "boring" stuff, then get bored of my "fun" stuff, my work ethic, reputation, etc. would go down the toilet.

I think I work similarly when I am at my best. It sounds like you have a good system worked out for yourself. Reading your post has inspired me to get back on track and back in balance. After going through a burnout it is sometimes hard for me to remember how fun and motivating the "fun" projects really are.


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"In fact, my main conclusion after spending ten years of my life working on the TeX project is that software is hard. It’s harder than anything else I’ve ever had to do."
― Donald Knuth, "All Questions Answered", Notices of the AMS

“We need to enter the conversation willing to be wrong, willing to admit the limits of our own knowledge, willing to reconsider our evidence, sources, and premises. That is self-skepticism.”
― Patricia Roberts-Miller, Demagoguery and Democracy


cornerpiece
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16 Sep 2021, 6:15 pm

badRobot wrote:
When I experience period of "resistance" in the moment, when I supposed or consciously want to do something, but can't bring myself to start doing it, I do a short HIIT workout or breathing exercises. It works every time.

Could you elaborate on that a bit more please?

I do struggle too, like most here. Last time my other half had a meltdown and told me he regretted ever meeting me. Next day I skipped work, second day was a little bit better. These periods of inactivity, all for various reasons, are just too frequent. Can't do much with the suckiness of life, but I do hope that there is a way to enable body and mind function better despite that. And I hope it isn't just a trick that has consequences later anyway...



badRobot
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17 Sep 2021, 1:20 am

cornerpiece wrote:
badRobot wrote:
When I experience period of "resistance" in the moment, when I supposed or consciously want to do something, but can't bring myself to start doing it, I do a short HIIT workout or breathing exercises. It works every time.

Could you elaborate on that a bit more please?

I do struggle too, like most here. Last time my other half had a meltdown and told me he regretted ever meeting me. Next day I skipped work, second day was a little bit better. These periods of inactivity, all for various reasons, are just too frequent. Can't do much with the suckiness of life, but I do hope that there is a way to enable body and mind function better despite that. And I hope it isn't just a trick that has consequences later anyway...


Basically we have two main modes of motivation: reward and stress. Reward system motivates us to act to achieve something positive, stress system motivates us to act to avoid threats. Stress system has higher priority, suppresses reward system, when we are stressed, we can't act for some long term benefit.

That's why a lot of people procrastinate until last minute, completing your assignment ahead of deadline is something positive, rewarding, good for your career, but when reward system is suppressed, this motivation just doesn't work. When you are approaching deadline, it becomes a matter of avoiding threat of confrontation or being fired, stress system is now responsible for this assignment, not reward. And stress system usually works pretty well.

We have this weird quirk in our genetic program, we can get stressed over some non-physical threats, it activates the same circuitry as direct physical threat, keeps us wound up, ready to fight physically, our muscles tense up, our heart rates goes up, etc. But we can't completely get rid of this stress and anxiety in a non-physical way. The program is very strong: threat -> stress -> fight or flight response -> relax -> unlock reward system.

Fight or flight response awaits for intense physical activity as a signal that threat was successfully evaded or defeated.

What I personally do is 3 rounds of extremely intense burpees, at same intensity as if I'm running away from a mountain lion or something, until my legs stop working or I feel I'm about to pass out. It immediately sends signals to downregulate stress and anxiety and rewards system gets unlocked. To trick my motivation I tell myself I need to do only 1 or 2 burpees, but then just don't stop.

Breathing exercises, like Wim Hof method is kind of a shortcut of intense physical activity, not as beneficial overall, but triggers a lot of the same stuff and short term response can be even stronger, usually more than enough to do the job.