Do I even WANT to have "close" friends anymore?

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Flown
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30 Aug 2021, 8:57 am

Not only do I have a difficult time making friends, but I have an even harder time keeping them. Abusive and unstable people seem to be attracted to my quiet and empathetic nature, and I have no idea how to avoid that pattern. I've reached a point in my life where I'm wondering if I even want to attempt friendships anymore. Does anyone else feel this way?

When I was a drinker, I was able to participate in a few friendships, however, the only thing that really bound us together was alcohol. I was unable to function or interact without that buffer. When I finally got sober (and came off of SSRIs) in 2015, the few friendships that I had ended pretty abruptly. It felt like I was waking up from a very bad dream, and I quickly realized just how abusive (both emotionally and physically) my friends had been to me. I called them out on their behavior and was met with a lot of backlash. I was furious at myself for having let these things happen (I guess I was being treated as a "doormat"?), but I've felt so much better since I decided to cut these people from my life entirely.

Once sober, I attempted another friendship in 2016 that also ended in absolute failure. This "friend" was pushy, dominating, and inconsiderate of the boundaries I attempted to set. I became easily overwhelmed when around her as she was loud and talkative, and I had no "alcohol buffer" to protect me from going into overload every time I was around her. I eventually let her know that I didn't think we were a good match, and that I didn't want to be friends with her anymore. She began stalking me soon after I asked her to cease contact with me, and it was a very uncomfortable situation I found myself in.

In recent years, I've limited myself to online connections, but I've found that I am still struggling with friendships even in this setting. It's reached a point where the energy I'm spending is not worth the energy I'm getting back. My therapist recently brought up that there is no harm in having multiple friends around in order to fulfill particular emotional needs, and that I shouldn't feel obligated to "go all in" on any particular friendship. I'm feeling very confused about all of it, and I don't really know how I should proceed. Am I broken? Should I even try anymore?


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31 Aug 2021, 11:12 am

It seems no one want to touch this topic :lol:


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Mona Pereth
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01 Sep 2021, 4:30 am

Flown wrote:
Not only do I have a difficult time making friends, but I have an even harder time keeping them. Abusive and unstable people seem to be attracted to my quiet and empathetic nature, and I have no idea how to avoid that pattern. I've reached a point in my life where I'm wondering if I even want to attempt friendships anymore. Does anyone else feel this way?

Some people here have expressed similar sentiments on the past. Apparently they are not here at the moment. I'm not one of them; I've had more successes with friendships. But perhaps I can help start a useful conversation here?

Flown wrote:
When I was a drinker, I was able to participate in a few friendships, however, the only thing that really bound us together was alcohol. I was unable to function or interact without that buffer. When I finally got sober (and came off of SSRIs) in 2015, the few friendships that I had ended pretty abruptly.

I would suspect that a lot of alcoholics have this problem.

How did you become sober? Do you participate in a 12-step program or other support group? If so, have you discussed this problem there? And have you attempted to make friends there?

Flown wrote:
It felt like I was waking up from a very bad dream, and I quickly realized just how abusive (both emotionally and physically) my friends had been to me. I called them out on their behavior and was met with a lot of backlash. I was furious at myself for having let these things happen (I guess I was being treated as a "doormat"?), but I've felt so much better since I decided to cut these people from my life entirely.

Once sober, I attempted another friendship in 2016 that also ended in absolute failure.

How did this attempted friendship start? How did you and she meet? How did you and she then go about cultivating the friendship?

Flown wrote:
This "friend" was pushy, dominating, and inconsiderate of the boundaries I attempted to set.

If you don't mind discussing this, how did you go about attempting to set boundaries with her?

Flown wrote:
I became easily overwhelmed when around her as she was loud and talkative, and I had no "alcohol buffer" to protect me from going into overload every time I was around her.

Some people really can't help being "loud and talkative." Some people, myself included, have naturally loud voices, and thus can't be good in-person companions to people who are sensitive to loud voices. I don't know whether this was the main issue between you and her, but, if so, then this was an incompatibility but probably not matter of her being deliberately inconsiderate towards you.

Flown wrote:
I eventually let her know that I didn't think we were a good match, and that I didn't want to be friends with her anymore. She began stalking me soon after I asked her to cease contact with me, and it was a very uncomfortable situation I found myself in.

Personally, I don't think it's generally a good idea (in most cases, at least) to ask an incompatible friend to cease contact altogether. I think it's better just to ask the person to contact you a lot less often, and more generally to create distance between you and the other person (e.g. by limiting contact to occasional online contact only) without cutting them off altogether. If you try to cut the person off altogether, especially without giving the person adequate closure, this inevitably creates all manner of awkwardness and drama with any common acquaintances you might have.

Of course there are exceptions. In the more extreme abusive situations, where you are afraid the other person may try to kill or injure you, it may be truly necessary not only to cut off contact but to go into hiding or even change one's identity. But, in my opinion, such extremes aren't necessary for ordinary breakups of either friendships or romantic relationships. These days it's fashionable to advise people to go "no contact" for all sorts of less-than-dire reasons; I personally think that's very bad, cruel, and self-defeating advice.

Flown wrote:
In recent years, I've limited myself to online connections, but I've found that I am still struggling with friendships even in this setting. It's reached a point where the energy I'm spending is not worth the energy I'm getting back. My therapist recently brought up that there is no harm in having multiple friends around in order to fulfill particular emotional needs, and that I shouldn't feel obligated to "go all in" on any particular friendship.

I agree with your therapist that you shouldn't feel obligated to "go all in." It's not a good idea to spend a lot more energy on someone than you're getting back.

Flown wrote:
I'm feeling very confused about all of it, and I don't really know how I should proceed. Am I broken? Should I even try anymore?

As for how you should proceed, that depends on many different aspects of your life. Do you have any hobbies, for example?


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01 Sep 2021, 4:31 am

Flown wrote:
It seems no one want to touch this topic :lol:

More likely, I think it has just been a slow day here on WP.


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01 Sep 2021, 9:11 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
.


I appreciate you taking the time to delve into this.

Answering your questions in order:
I became sober in 2015 (as did my husband). My husband and I were both binge drinkers, using alcohol as a coping mechanism as we are both pretty terrible with socializing. We are both neurodiverse. We do not attend AA (we are not religious and most groups have a very strong Christian foundation), but we provide each other very good support when it comes to urges, etc.

I met her through a college acquaintance and she contacted me via social media. She and her husband were tabletop gamers like us and invited us over to play. Unfortunately, I was unable to enjoy most of our gatherings as her home was a sensory hell for both my husband and me. She had multiple children and multiple animals (she hoarded cats and had one dog as well). She did not clean up after either the children or animals, so the stench and filth in her house was really overwhelming. I tried not to be too judgmental about this, but it definitely affected me on a physical and mental level. I have asthma and sensory issues (of course). She would typically invite big, loud groups over for her game nights (not something too surprising i guess), but I honestly didn't feel very comfortable being around HER. I usually would not last through games and would have to politely see myself out (with my husband) for the night. I tried planning smaller game nights at our house, but she wasn't really willing or able to do this very much. In these smaller settings (when I was better able to focus) her gaming play style and interactions with others revealed a lot about her that I didn't like.

Additionally, she knew that I am autistic and that I needed recoup time and space when it came to socializing. She wasn't very good at respecting this, and it got to a point (it had only been 3-4 months of hanging out together) where she was asking my husband and me for favors (watching her multiple children, watching her animals, feeding her animals while she was out of town, etc). We fed her animals once (as the dog would have starved/soiled its crate and the cats would have starved) while she was out of town), but I let her know that I was unable to take on any further responsibilities of her household. She continued to push me for more favors, and I just couldn't deal with it anymore. That's when I let her know that I didn't think we were compatible as friends.

In terms of talkative friends/family, this isn't really my first experience with them. I actually have a very talkative autistic nephew who has the most intense info-dumps I've ever experienced :lol: However, he is never upset when I interrupt and let him know I need to go "reset" -- and that I'll be back in a bit. This "friend" was the type to be offended by that sort of thing.

We had no common acquaintances that this "breakup" really affected. If I don't break free from relationships that are this distressing, I will obsess and make myself physically ill.

I'm feeling a bit tired right now, but I may follow up on some of your other questions later.


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Mona Pereth
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01 Sep 2021, 11:22 am

Flown wrote:
Answering your questions in order:
I became sober in 2015 (as did my husband). My husband and I were both binge drinkers, using alcohol as a coping mechanism as we are both pretty terrible with socializing. We are both neurodiverse. We do not attend AA (we are not religious and most groups have a very strong Christian foundation), but we provide each other very good support when it comes to urges, etc.

It's great that you are able to provide each other with adequate support in this regard. It might be a good idea to look around for an online non-AA sober alcoholics' support group for further advice on how to cultivate sober friendships.

I can speak to this question only as a person who has never liked to drink alcoholic beverages. I tend to make friends through deep, often highly focused, highly analytical discussion of common interests. Alcohol is not conducive to the kinds of conversation I enjoy. Alcohol is conducive more to the kinds of meandering chitchat that I don't enjoy, in the first place.

Flown wrote:
I met her through a college acquaintance and she contacted me via social media. She and her husband were tabletop gamers like us and invited us over to play. Unfortunately, I was unable to enjoy most of our gatherings as her home was a sensory hell for both my husband and me. She had multiple children and multiple animals (she hoarded cats and had one dog as well). She did not clean up after either the children or animals, so the stench and filth in her house was really overwhelming. I tried not to be too judgmental about this, but it definitely affected me on a physical and mental level.

I think it's important to distinguish among the following three different ways of being "judgmental": (1) judging someone morally, (2) rejecting someone for being "beneath" you in some way, e.g. social/economic status, and (3) deeming someone to be incompatible without deeming them to be "beneath" you, morally or otherwise. When deeming someone to be incompatible, the focus is on your own needs, not on the other person as a "bad person" or a "low-life."

I think it's best to be slow to judge someone (either positively or negatively) in terms of morality, but quicker to make judgments about obvious incompatibilities.

Flown wrote:
I have asthma and sensory issues (of course). She would typically invite big, loud groups over for her game nights (not something too surprising i guess), but I honestly didn't feel very comfortable being around HER. I usually would not last through games and would have to politely see myself out (with my husband) for the night. I tried planning smaller game nights at our house, but she wasn't really willing or able to do this very much. In these smaller settings (when I was better able to focus) her gaming play style and interactions with others revealed a lot about her that I didn't like.

Sounds like you never actually enjoyed her company, at least in-person, even on the first visit. Is that correct?

Personally, I would have refused any further in-person visits with someone I was so obviously incompatible with on the first visit -- although I would have been willing to stay in occasional touch online if the other person desired this.

If you don't actually enjoy being with someone, then that person is highly unlikely to be a good potential friend. (The only exceptions would be if you have some other kind of basis for a strong personal bond, e.g. you both helped each other survive a local disaster. Even in such a case, if you don't actually enjoy each other's company, it would be best to limit the friendship to whatever kind of interaction is least stressful for both people and not visit each other's homes very often if at all.)

Flown wrote:
Additionally, she knew that I am autistic and that I needed recoup time and space when it came to socializing. She wasn't very good at respecting this, and it got to a point (it had only been 3-4 months of hanging out together) where she was asking my husband and me for favors (watching her multiple children, watching her animals, feeding her animals while she was out of town, etc).

Did she ever offer to do any favors for you? (Or, if not, did she offer to pay you for baby-sitting?)

If a friendship involves favors, they need to be mutual. Someone who asks for favors without also doing favors for you is obviously not a good potential friend.

Flown wrote:
We fed her animals once (as the dog would have starved/soiled its crate and the cats would have starved) while she was out of town), but I let her know that I was unable to take on any further responsibilities of her household. She continued to push me for more favors, and I just couldn't deal with it anymore. That's when I let her know that I didn't think we were compatible as friends.

In terms of talkative friends/family, this isn't really my first experience with them. I actually have a very talkative autistic nephew who has the most intense info-dumps I've ever experienced :lol: However, he is never upset when I interrupt and let him know I need to go "reset" -- and that I'll be back in a bit. This "friend" was the type to be offended by that sort of thing.

Did this "friend" know any other openly autistic people?

Flown wrote:
We had no common acquaintances that this "breakup" really affected. If I don't break free from relationships that are this distressing, I will obsess and make myself physically ill.

IMO it's best to refuse further in-person visits with obviously-incompatible people before the relationship gets so distressing, as such relationships almost inevitably will become if you continue to visit each other.

Perhaps my own strictness about avoiding repeated in-person visits with obviously incompatible people is the reason why, on the other hand, I've only very rarely felt a need to abruptly break off contact with someone entirely.

In short: I don't think you should give up looking for friends. But, based on what you've said here, it seems to me that you may need to develop a clear set of personal standards as to what makes someone a compatible potential friend, so you can avoid spending time with people who are obviously incompatible.


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03 Sep 2021, 9:00 pm

It looks like you DO want to have close friends. It's maybe just difficult for you to find someone who is an appropriate match and who can understand your sensory needs.
I can see that you're putting a lot of thought into what's gone wrong so far. I think you're doing the best you can, and eventually something's going to stick.
At least I have to keep thinking that way for my own sake, because I'm forever hyper-analyzing all of my failed friendships.
Surely someday we'll have great friendships that will be worth the journey. :D :heart:



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04 Sep 2021, 8:59 am

Your counselors advice might be good for "most people", but your situation is different

If you don't want to try to get friends, that is your decision, not anyone else's



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04 Sep 2021, 11:20 am

I no longer seek out or feel the need for close friends. It’s your life and your choice to make.


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Mona Pereth
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05 Sep 2021, 1:25 am

Of course, if indeed you really don't want friends, that's your choice to make. However, there are lots of autistic people who do want friends but have been unsuccessful at finding good potential friends and/or unsuccessful at initiating and maintaining friendships.


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05 Sep 2021, 5:19 am

There's a lot to catch up on here. Let me drink some tea and organize my thoughts before responding back at length :) Thank you all for your input!


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06 Sep 2021, 1:09 am

Very close relationships are usually exhausting for me. Too many relationships has the same effect. The ideal is a few good friends that I see not too frequently.


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06 Sep 2021, 3:55 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
.


Well, I had a detailed response to each section of your reply, but WP decided to glitch out on me and delete it.

The gist of my response:

It was not a reciprocal relationship. There was no effort from the other side really.

This isn't the first time this has happened, as I have a bad habit of giving people the benefit of the doubt when I should be listening to my initial instincts. Not sure if I want to continue trying to make friends as it is such a tiring process that often ends in these "lopsided" relationships. I think most people feel "incompatible" to be honest.


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06 Sep 2021, 4:01 am

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Your counselors advice might be good for "most people", but your situation is different

If you don't want to try to get friends, that is your decision, not anyone else's


blazingstar wrote:
I no longer seek out or feel the need for close friends. It’s your life and your choice to make.


I really appreciate this. I feel a bit relieved to see this perspective here. I have felt this pressure to function "normally" for the longest time, but I just don't think it's going to happen. And I don't know if I really WANT it to happen.

I'm already juggling both chronic illness and neurodiversity, so social interaction can just feel like torture at times.


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06 Sep 2021, 4:08 am

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
Very close relationships are usually exhausting for me. Too many relationships has the same effect. The ideal is a few good friends that I see not too frequently.

*hugs* I agree with you entirely.

I have a few online friends (who live really far away from me) that I've known for many years. They are actually all autistic, so there is no pressure to talk every day (or every month) or to live up to a lot of the unspoken neurotypical friendship standards. Maybe I should be embracing these atypical friendships rather than trying to force myself into "normal" friendships?


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Mona Pereth
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06 Sep 2021, 6:00 am

Flown wrote:
It was not a reciprocal relationship. There was no effort from the other side really.

This isn't the first time this has happened, as I have a bad habit of giving people the benefit of the doubt when I should be listening to my initial instincts. Not sure if I want to continue trying to make friends as it is such a tiring process that often ends in these "lopsided" relationships. I think most people feel "incompatible" to be honest.

The vast majority of people feel incompatible to me too.

I certainly don't try to be friends with every random person who crosses my path. I do try to be friendly to my neighbors in basic ways like saying hello when I see them, but I don't try to become friends with them, beyond basic neighborliness.

I've usually sought friendships with fellow oddballs who shared specific unusual interests of mine.

Also, ever since my early twenties, I've pretty much renounced time-consuming mainstream social expectations such as holiday gift exchange, which always struck me as a lot of pointless hassle. IMO holidays should be a time to relax, not a time to be even more frantic than normal.

Nevertheless I have always felt that it is important for me to have friends -- and to have an alternative extended family / mutual support network.


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