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thinkinginpictures
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02 Sep 2021, 9:02 am

Why does everyone adhere to "political correctness"? Why is speaking the Truth not allowed?

If I say "Russia's only purpose in Europe is - sadly - to annex European contries and enslave their populations", it is politically incorrect to say that, because it gives diplomatic troubles, but it is a truth nonetheless.

But it seems I can't speak that truth, without getting in trouble.

I believe we need to speak openly about the Truths of this world, no matter how much it hurts. The truth will never become any different, just because we look away.



King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 9:17 am

I'm against stereotypes and bigotry as much as anybody, but I think the Left has been taking it too far.


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02 Sep 2021, 9:24 am

It's like the situation with Israel being an apartheid state that mistreats Arabs or China locking up Uighers in concentration camps. Nobody wants to acknowledgement these things because the Zionists are always bringing up the holocaust and the CCP are always pointing out the crimes committed by European colonists.


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magz
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02 Sep 2021, 9:33 am

Think of it as political correctness. Politeness.


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 9:39 am

magz wrote:
Think of it as political correctness. Politeness.


I think there's a fine line between politeness and denying the truth about things.


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02 Sep 2021, 9:49 am

I like to think of PC as linguistic authoritarianism.


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magz
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02 Sep 2021, 10:16 am

King0fSpades wrote:
magz wrote:
Think of it as political correctness. Politeness.
I think there's a fine line between politeness and denying the truth about things.
There are situations when not being polite is appropriate.
But impoliteness should be used wisely, certainly not as everyday attitude, generally after exhausting the polite options first.


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 10:35 am

magz wrote:
King0fSpades wrote:
magz wrote:
Think of it as political correctness. Politeness.
I think there's a fine line between politeness and denying the truth about things.
There are situations when not being polite is appropriate.
But impoliteness should be used wisely, certainly not as everyday attitude, generally after exhausting the polite options first.



That's true, I guess that's how diplomacy works. One has to be diplomatic in order to avoid war.

Still I dont support the idea of calling anyone who speaks out against the governments of countries like Israel and China as being racist though. I can understand standing up for Jews after the atrocious things done to them during World War 2 or standing up for Asians in the US who are being subjected to an increase in anti-Asian violence lately.

But censoring people for speaking out against the atrocious things that their governments are doing is wrong.


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 10:50 am

What's politically correct depends on the room. What's acceptable to say in a room filled with decent people might be very offensive to a room filled with United Daughters of the Confederacy.


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magz
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02 Sep 2021, 10:55 am

King0fSpades wrote:
magz wrote:
King0fSpades wrote:
magz wrote:
Think of it as political correctness. Politeness.
I think there's a fine line between politeness and denying the truth about things.
There are situations when not being polite is appropriate.
But impoliteness should be used wisely, certainly not as everyday attitude, generally after exhausting the polite options first.



That's true, I guess that's how diplomacy works. One has to be diplomatic in order to avoid war.

Still I dont support the idea of calling anyone who speaks out against the governments of countries like Israel and China as being racist though. I can understand standing up for Jews after the atrocious things done to them during World War 2 or standing up for Asians in the US who are being subjected to an increase in anti-Asian violence lately.

But censoring people for speaking out against the atrocious things that their governments are doing is wrong.

These forms of "political correctness" I find wrong and unhealthy, too.
Especially when you make the distinction clear that you criticise governments not peoples.


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King0fSpades
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02 Sep 2021, 11:13 am

funeralxempire wrote:
What's politically correct depends on the room. What's acceptable to say in a room filled with decent people might be very offensive to a room filled with United Daughters of the Confederacy.



I would tell them "We lost the war! Get over it!" :lol:


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 11:36 am

King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What's politically correct depends on the room. What's acceptable to say in a room filled with decent people might be very offensive to a room filled with United Daughters of the Confederacy.



I would tell them "We lost the war! Get over it!" :lol:


That kinda misses the point I'm trying to make.

What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).


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02 Sep 2021, 11:43 am

funeralxempire wrote:
King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What's politically correct depends on the room. What's acceptable to say in a room filled with decent people might be very offensive to a room filled with United Daughters of the Confederacy.



I would tell them "We lost the war! Get over it!" :lol:


That kinda misses the point I'm trying to make.

What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).



I see your point now. It's funny how that works and I guess part of it is people being told what they want to hear (like in Trump's case) vs people who refuse to deal with an inconvenient truth?


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 11:55 am

King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
What's politically correct depends on the room. What's acceptable to say in a room filled with decent people might be very offensive to a room filled with United Daughters of the Confederacy.



I would tell them "We lost the war! Get over it!" :lol:


That kinda misses the point I'm trying to make.

What I'm saying is that political correctness is just a reflection of the Overton window. Some ideas, positions, ideals, etc will always be too outrageous to be able to be easily advocated for or defended because they're fundamentally at odds with how that society (or other group of people) views things.

If the outsider is correct about something, bitching about PC-this and PC-that won't make their case more compelling (think Copernicus and the heliocentric universe).

If the outsider is wrong complaining about political correctness might be all they have, so they'll rely on it (think Donald Trump whining about being deplatformed while using many platforms to make those complaints).



I see your point now. It's funny how that works and I guess part of it is people being told what they want to hear (like in Trump's case) vs people who refuse to deal with an inconvenient truth?


Sorta. At the very least it's hard to get people to listen to what's being said if what's being said shocks and repulses them.

This means sometimes even a righteous cause has a big uphill battle at first to change hearts and minds because they'll need to have a more serious argument than just 'oh look at us, we trigger our opponents and they just want to censor us'.


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02 Sep 2021, 12:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Sorta. At the very least it's hard to get people to listen to what's being said if what's being said shocks and repulses them.

This means sometimes even a righteous cause has a big uphill battle at first to change hearts and minds because they'll need to have a more serious argument than just 'oh look at us, we trigger our opponents and they just want to censor us'.



I understand now. It basically takes tact and a lot of skill to convince people to support something you know in your heart is a right cause. Most of us dont really seem to have that ability and I honestly don't understand how some of history's greatest people were able to gain enough support from people to fight for causes that were just.

Very amazing people do that, but at the same time some very horrible people have also abuse that skill to do atrocious things like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.


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funeralxempire
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02 Sep 2021, 12:15 pm

King0fSpades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Sorta. At the very least it's hard to get people to listen to what's being said if what's being said shocks and repulses them.

This means sometimes even a righteous cause has a big uphill battle at first to change hearts and minds because they'll need to have a more serious argument than just 'oh look at us, we trigger our opponents and they just want to censor us'.



I understand now. It basically takes tact and a lot of skill to convince people to support something you know in your heart is a right cause. Most of us dont really seem to have that ability and I honestly don't understand how some of history's greatest people were able to gain enough support from people to fight for causes that were just.

Very amazing people do that, but at the same time some very horrible people have also abuse that skill to do atrocious things like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.


Exactly. That's also why I'm taking a fairly neutral approach instead of trying to argue that it's a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing that exists and has positives and negatives.

When you're arguing for a position that's outside of the window it might feel like that window existing is a problem, but sometimes that position is outside of the window because people have been socialized to view it as morally abhorrent. When the position being argued for is an expansion of rights, or to finally begin protecting rights that window will feel like a problem, but that window is also part of what keeps these people are disruptive, why don't we just kill them? from becoming a mainstream position too.

I don't think it's possible to untangle the positives and negatives so instead all we can do is be mindful that an Overton window exists.


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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う