Texas abortion law includes bounty system

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DW_a_mom
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03 Sep 2021, 5:06 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Or you can move to San Francisco and make $300 per month for not shooting people.


The San Francisco experiment is quite a lot more complicated than that and I would take San Francisco over neighbors spying on me in hopes of winning a civil settlement any day.

It really is getting difficult to believe this is all one country, isn't it?

Paying criminals not to commit crimes means San Francisco has lost and the criminals are in charge.


Go to the relevant thread. That is not what they are doing. Bad headline.


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03 Sep 2021, 6:54 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
The law was designed that way so as to not give anyone legal standing to sue, making it much harder to challenge in court. The way it's written, the state is not the one enforcing the law, so anyone wishing to file a lawsuit over it has to sue the individual who brought the action against them for the bounty, it's quite deviously ingenious in how it was structured.


Ingenious but also disastrous. This is a can of worms our country will live to regret opening. Absolute insanity IMHO, but also what happens when people are driven by a theological goal instead of pragmatism. The right to life political movement is so far off the rails from the more comprehensive goal "right to life" is supposed to have that I just can't deal with them anymore. I am personally pro-life, but there are compassionate ways to achieve that goal that do not involve putting any third parties into women's private lives. The annoying thing is that states like Texas just want nothing to do with the types of programs which are PROVEN to work because they conflict with their other political goals. I'm furious.


Yeah, the things that have been demonstrated to reduce abortion are strong social safety nets, comprehensive sex education, and easy access to birth control.

Too bad so many who oppose abortion also oppose these measures.

Forced-birthers don't care about babies, they just want to punish women.


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03 Sep 2021, 8:00 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
The law was designed that way so as to not give anyone legal standing to sue, making it much harder to challenge in court. The way it's written, the state is not the one enforcing the law, so anyone wishing to file a lawsuit over it has to sue the individual who brought the action against them for the bounty, it's quite deviously ingenious in how it was structured.


Ingenious but also disastrous. This is a can of worms our country will live to regret opening. Absolute insanity IMHO, but also what happens when people are driven by a theological goal instead of pragmatism. The right to life political movement is so far off the rails from the more comprehensive goal "right to life" is supposed to have that I just can't deal with them anymore. I am personally pro-life, but there are compassionate ways to achieve that goal that do not involve putting any third parties into women's private lives. The annoying thing is that states like Texas just want nothing to do with the types of programs which are PROVEN to work because they conflict with their other political goals. I'm furious.


Yeah, the things that have been demonstrated to reduce abortion are strong social safety nets, comprehensive sex education, and easy access to birth control.

Too bad so many who oppose abortion also oppose these measures.

Forced-birthers don't care about babies, they just want to punish women.


I don't oppose any of those things quite the opposite.



Texasmoneyman300
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05 Sep 2021, 3:54 am

roronoa79 wrote:
The new Texas anti-abortion law includes a provision whereby those who successfully prosecute someone who has an abortion will have their legal fees covered and be paid $10,000 per case:

Texas’s new anti-abortion law turns citizens into bounty hunters

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Texas is at war against women’s reproductive rights, and turning its citizens into an army.

The state’s new anti-abortion law, which goes into effect today, bans all abortions—including in pregnancies resulting from rape or incest—as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detected. This occurs around six weeks after conception, or before many women would even know they are pregnant. The only exception to the rule is a medical emergency.

This is the most restrictive anti-abortion law in the country, and one of the most extreme in the world. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) had asked the Supreme Court an emergency ruling to block the law, but the court didn’t respond.

An army of anti-abortion vigilantes
Making the law even more extraordinary, the power of enacting the ban isn’t in the state’s hands, but in those of its citizens.

According to the law, private citizens can sue the physician who performed an abortion after the sixth week, as well as anyone who helped facilitate it, from counselors to anyone providing financial support for the procedure to someone who simply drove the woman to the clinic with the knowledge that she was getting an abortion.

The complainant can receive up to $10,000 in damage compensation if the accused is found guilty, on top of any legal fees, even if they don’t have any connection with the woman who received the abortion. Depending on the verdict, the court could enforce the collection of the debt, which could include seizing property if the person found guilty doesn’t have sufficient available funds to pay.

This means that, as of today, every Texan has a financial incentive to track down almost any abortion, since at least two-thirds of all abortions occur after the sixth week.


Since it isn’t the government suing the patient, the law does not fall under the protections established by Roe v Wade, the Supreme Court decision which forbids the states from imposing restrictions on abortion at least until the fetus is viable and can survive out of the uterus.

The goal, as expressly stated by the proponent of the law, is to put anyone providing, or helping abortions after the sixth week under the threat of a deluge of lawsuits, making it financially unsustainable to maintain an abortion practice. Even if the providers won in court, and could demonstrate they didn’t perform the abortion after six weeks, the time and money required to sustain the suits could still be too much to bear.

The Supreme Court might still block the law as unconstitutional, but until it does, it is likely other conservative states will try and emulate the Texas model.

According to the latest data available, as of 2017 there were 35 abortion-providing facilities in Texas, of which 28 were clinics. As the law comes into effect, all of them—including Planned Parenthood—have stopped providing abortion services after the sixth week, and a majority of them might be forced to close.


Do you hate women's rights? Want to make a sweet $10k? Report a woman for getting an abortion! Profit from the denial of rights to others!

I am glad that my fellow Texans have banned abortion in the great state of Texas.Babies are a gift from God.



DW_a_mom
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05 Sep 2021, 4:14 am

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I am glad that my fellow Texans have banned abortion in the great state of Texas.Babies are a gift from God.


A few things you may not be aware of:
1. Data shows that the most effective way to save the lives of the unborn is NOT by making abortion illegal, but by providing more affordable, accessible, and comprehensive healthcare. There is no justifiable reason, therefore, to bring the law into what are often difficult and complicated medical decisions (you can't think of abortions as purely elective; that isn't the reality).
2. The enforcement mechanism in the law is problematic, and likely to drive many obstetricians out of business and/or out of the specialty. I've detailed out how I concluded that on my personal FB page but it's too long to repeat here. Fewer doctors means fewer women will get the healthcare they need while pregnant, and more babies and mothers will die or suffer serious health issues. Pregnancy is risky business. Women need good doctors.
3. The enforcement mechanism in the law can and will be copied by states eager to make end-runs around other federal implementations and interpretations of constitutional protections. This is not good. It's a can of worms.


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Texasmoneyman300
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05 Sep 2021, 4:25 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I am glad that my fellow Texans have banned abortion in the great state of Texas.Babies are a gift from God.


A few things you may not be aware of:
1. Data shows that the most effective way to save the lives of the unborn is NOT by making abortion illegal, but by providing more affordable, accessible, and comprehensive healthcare. There is no justifiable reason, therefore, to bring the law into what are often difficult and complicated medical decisions (you can't think of abortions as purely elective; that isn't the reality).
2. The enforcement mechanism in the law is problematic, and likely to drive many obstetricians out of business and/or out of the specialty. I've detailed out how I concluded that on my personal FB page but it's too long to repeat here. Fewer doctors means fewer women will get the healthcare they need while pregnant, and more babies and mothers will die or suffer serious health issues. Pregnancy is risky business. Women need good doctors.
3. The enforcement mechanism in the law can and will be copied by states eager to make end-runs around other federal implementations and interpretations of constitutional protections. This is not good. It's a can of worms.

I just believe its never okay to murder."Thou Shall Not Murder" and all.



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05 Sep 2021, 4:51 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
A few things you may not be aware of:
1. Data shows that the most effective way to save the lives of the unborn is NOT by making abortion illegal, but by providing more affordable, accessible, and comprehensive healthcare. There is no justifiable reason, therefore, to bring the law into what are often difficult and complicated medical decisions (you can't think of abortions as purely elective; that isn't the reality).


I'm not sure that's going to be an effective argument to someone who literally thinks abortion is murder, they might even agree with you about some of the other ways to support people to reduce demand, but at the end of the day it's still killing a baby as far as they're concerned. If that's what someone believes, I don't think you can conjure up a set of circumstances where they're going to say "oh, well in that case go ahead and do it", it's not something that can be justified away to them.


DW_a_mom wrote:
2. The enforcement mechanism in the law is problematic, and likely to drive many obstetricians out of business and/or out of the specialty. I've detailed out how I concluded that on my personal FB page but it's too long to repeat here. Fewer doctors means fewer women will get the healthcare they need while pregnant, and more babies and mothers will die or suffer serious health issues. Pregnancy is risky business. Women need good doctors.


That's the point, the counter-argument is that it would only effect doctors who perform abortions, so any obstetrician wishing to practice in Texas would simply not offer that service.


DW_a_mom wrote:
3. The enforcement mechanism in the law can and will be copied by states eager to make end-runs around other federal implementations and interpretations of constitutional protections. This is not good. It's a can of worms.


It's basically a legal gimmick designed to make it harder to challenge preemptively, I don't expect it to stand up in court, which is why I'm treating this whole thing as more of a stunt than a serious legal issue. I would be amused if some progressive types tried some tit for tat copycat legislation and got shot down in a precedent setting way, I wouldn't take the chance if I were them with this court.


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05 Sep 2021, 5:10 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Or you can move to San Francisco and make $300 per month for not shooting people.


If you can find a job that pays about $200,000/year


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DW_a_mom
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05 Sep 2021, 7:00 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
A few things you may not be aware of:
1. Data shows that the most effective way to save the lives of the unborn is NOT by making abortion illegal, but by providing more affordable, accessible, and comprehensive healthcare. There is no justifiable reason, therefore, to bring the law into what are often difficult and complicated medical decisions (you can't think of abortions as purely elective; that isn't the reality).


I'm not sure that's going to be an effective argument to someone who literally thinks abortion is murder, they might even agree with you about some of the other ways to support people to reduce demand, but at the end of the day it's still killing a baby as far as they're concerned. If that's what someone believes, I don't think you can conjure up a set of circumstances where they're going to say "oh, well in that case go ahead and do it", it's not something that can be justified away to them.


And yet more and more Christians are coming to the same conclusion I did. I’m not the same outlier I was 40 years ago, despite how vocal the political pro-life crowd is. That is because we now have data to prove what I’ve long believed. When people see the data, they realize they can save more babies my way than by changing the law. Is the goal to save babies, or to see your values printed into law? If you believe abortion is murder, you should prioritize saving babies. As someone who is solidly pro-life within my own life, I can tell you that the data is what does make people stop and think more often than any other point. I firmly believe that non-legal measures are the best path to saving babies. I have had long and deep talks with many women who have had abortions, I feel I know what needs to happen.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
2. The enforcement mechanism in the law is problematic, and likely to drive many obstetricians out of business and/or out of the specialty. I've detailed out how I concluded that on my personal FB page but it's too long to repeat here. Fewer doctors means fewer women will get the healthcare they need while pregnant, and more babies and mothers will die or suffer serious health issues. Pregnancy is risky business. Women need good doctors.


That's the point, the counter-argument is that it would only effect doctors who perform abortions, so any obstetrician wishing to practice in Texas would simply not offer that service.


But it won’t. Doctors who don’t normally perform abortions are stuffed between a rock and a hard place when it comes to medical emergencies. Yes the law has an exception, but medical emergencies are inherently gray and full of judgement calls. I had one delivering my son and I remember how heavily my doctor was weighing his options. Consider that the enforcement measure is civil law, not criminal law, which means the standard of proof to win is much lower. Doctors will be worried about lawsuits when medical emergencies that could indicate aborting the fetus occur. Lawsuits on both sides: that they didn’t do right by the baby and that they didn’t do right by the mother. There is no standard on who can bring these lawsuits, and it filing one is risk free. All the risk sits with the doctor deciding if he needs to perform a medical emergency abortion. They are going to be terrified, and insurance costs will go up.

Pregnancy and childbirth are very risky. Obstetricians already have some of the highest malpractice rates in the field. The insurance rates in Texas will go up. These aren’t abortion doctors, these are obstetricians, but even removal of a non-viable fetus is defined as an abortion.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
3. The enforcement mechanism in the law can and will be copied by states eager to make end-runs around other federal implementations and interpretations of constitutional protections. This is not good. It's a can of worms.


It's basically a legal gimmick designed to make it harder to challenge preemptively, I don't expect it to stand up in court, which is why I'm treating this whole thing as more of a stunt than a serious legal issue. I would be amused if some progressive types tried some tit for tat copycat legislation and got shot down in a precedent setting way, I wouldn't take the chance if I were them with this court.


The fact that it shouldn’t stand up in court doesn’t mean it won’t. The originalist leanings of SCOTUS could be an issue. Still, I hope you are right.


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22 Sep 2021, 5:45 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
The law was designed that way so as to not give anyone legal standing to sue, making it much harder to challenge in court. The way it's written, the state is not the one enforcing the law, so anyone wishing to file a lawsuit over it has to sue the individual who brought the action against them for the bounty, it's quite deviously ingenious in how it was structured.


Ingenious but also disastrous. This is a can of worms our country will live to regret opening. Absolute insanity IMHO, but also what happens when people are driven by a theological goal instead of pragmatism. The right to life political movement is so far off the rails from the more comprehensive goal "right to life" is supposed to have that I just can't deal with them anymore. I am personally pro-life, but there are compassionate ways to achieve that goal that do not involve putting any third parties into women's private lives. The annoying thing is that states like Texas just want nothing to do with the types of programs which are PROVEN to work because they conflict with their other political goals. I'm furious.


Yeah, the things that have been demonstrated to reduce abortion are strong social safety nets, comprehensive sex education, and easy access to birth control.

Too bad so many who oppose abortion also oppose these measures.

Forced-birthers don't care about babies, they just want to punish women.


Hey I know people raised by mothers who clearly didn't want children and it is absolutely soul crushing. In their cases it would probably have been kinder for them to have never existed at all. You certainly did the world a favor by not having children of your own.



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23 Sep 2021, 2:28 am

And there have already been lawsuits.

This is what happens when people vote for candidates based on the number of times they “menshun Gawd”, rather than how they can improve peoples’ lives.


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23 Sep 2021, 3:21 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
And there have already been lawsuits.

This is what happens when people vote for candidates based on the number of times they “menshun Gawd”, rather than how they can improve peoples’ lives.


Atheist here. My reasons for being anti abortion have nothing to do with religion or wanting to punish anyone.



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23 Sep 2021, 4:00 pm

Axeman wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
And there have already been lawsuits.

This is what happens when people vote for candidates based on the number of times they “menshun Gawd”, rather than how they can improve peoples’ lives.


Atheist here. My reasons for being anti abortion have nothing to do with religion or wanting to punish anyone.


Well what do they have to do with? I don't like abortion, but I think its necessary to have access to it. Maybe if pregnancy did not carry health risks for the pregnant person maybe I'd have a different view. But that being the case I cannot think it justifiable to force a woman to put their health at risk for a potential new life that may or may not even make it to birth.


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23 Sep 2021, 4:03 pm

Axeman wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
And there have already been lawsuits.

This is what happens when people vote for candidates based on the number of times they “menshun Gawd”, rather than how they can improve peoples’ lives.


Atheist here. My reasons for being anti abortion have nothing to do with religion or wanting to punish anyone.


I'm a Christian, but oppose Abbott and his theocratic bent.


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