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Axeman
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25 Sep 2021, 7:55 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well I don't understand why so many Americans make such a big deal out of the abortion issue, when the chances of a person needing an abortion are quite low as long as you stay safe. So if you stay safe, why make such a big deal out of something that doesn't effect you?


Your "odds are low" scenario hits at the heart of the problem, because it does not apply in US. We don't invest in true sex education or insure adequate and affordable access to healthcare, even though both could have a major impact on reducing abortion.

Americans are under-educated on how to avoid pregnancy and inconsistent on access to appropriate healthcare.

Add to that religious sentiment that even one abortion is too many, and you start to see the US situation.


Number one reason American women have abortions is because a baby would radically change their lifestyle. As in no longer being able to do whatever they want.

Undereducated in what way? Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you don't want kids don't have sex. Or get the pill.



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25 Sep 2021, 8:51 pm

Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well I don't understand why so many Americans make such a big deal out of the abortion issue, when the chances of a person needing an abortion are quite low as long as you stay safe. So if you stay safe, why make such a big deal out of something that doesn't effect you?


Your "odds are low" scenario hits at the heart of the problem, because it does not apply in US. We don't invest in true sex education or insure adequate and affordable access to healthcare, even though both could have a major impact on reducing abortion.

Americans are under-educated on how to avoid pregnancy and inconsistent on access to appropriate healthcare.

Add to that religious sentiment that even one abortion is too many, and you start to see the US situation.


Number one reason American women have abortions is because a baby would radically change their lifestyle. As in no longer being able to do whatever they want.

Undereducated in what way? Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you don't want kids don't have sex. Or get the pill.


I know someone who was pregnant at 12 because her boyfriend convinced her that what she was doing wasn’t sex

A lot of people cannot afford birth control. Did you think it was free or affordable here?

Roughly half of abortions are, apparently, among married or cohabitating women. What are you telling their male partners?

Where do you get your stat on the number one reason and what it translates to?

If you think it’s simple, you don’t know what life is like for many women.


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25 Sep 2021, 10:45 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well I don't understand why so many Americans make such a big deal out of the abortion issue, when the chances of a person needing an abortion are quite low as long as you stay safe. So if you stay safe, why make such a big deal out of something that doesn't effect you?


That's rather like saying people shouldn't be vocal about any law. Maybe people who don't drink or drive shouldn't care about DUI law. People who don't have murdered family members shouldn't care about victims' rights and capital punishment debates. People who see racism should ignore it if it doesn't affect them. Etc etc.

Is that the way you think the world should be?



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26 Sep 2021, 12:38 am

But people aren't vocal about a lot of laws though. Why is this one an exception compared to others?



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26 Sep 2021, 6:05 am

Axeman wrote:
Undereducated in what way? Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you don't want kids don't have sex. Or get the pill.


It's not that black and white.

1) Not every woman is able to take the pill (I happen to be one of them) as they can cause serious health consequences, side effects, and even stroke in a portion of the population. Additionally, insurance does not cover birth control for many (access is an issue). Other protections have a chance of failing, and healthcare providers OFTEN refuse young women the opportunity for tubal ligation. I've had multiple friends try to have this procedure done and doctors refused on the grounds that "they might want children later". :x

2) The pill is NOT foolproof. There are several medications that can interact with the pill (rendering it useless), and an accidental skipped dose can potentially lead to an unplanned pregnancy. Used PERFECTLY, the pill is around 99% effective. On average (when one factors in human error), it is around 91% effective.

3) It is absolutely ridiculous to ask anyone to just "not have sex". You are talking about people in longterm relationships, marriages, etc.

4) Pregnancy can mean health complications and even death for some women. (Some women don't even know they have these health issues UNTIL they get pregnant). It doesn't mean that these women should have to forgo intimacy as a result.


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26 Sep 2021, 8:18 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
you don’t know what life is like for many women.

many on the right don't know and DON'T CARE.



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26 Sep 2021, 8:20 pm

a country whose priorities are so skewed in favor of those on top, a country that systematically denies affordable health care to tens of millions of its own citizens, cannot by any reasonable definition be the best at anything.



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26 Sep 2021, 8:57 pm

That's a good point. Why do Americans keep voting for democrats usually when they never do anything about the health care system? I guess they feel that their promises, although likely empty, are still better than the party that will not make that promise at all?



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26 Sep 2021, 9:36 pm

ironpony wrote:
That's a good point. Why do Americans keep voting for democrats usually when they never do anything about the health care system? I guess they feel that their promises, although likely empty, are still better than the party that will not make that promise at all?

at least the democrats offer meager hope, whereas the GOP is all about total disenfranchisement and abandonment of hope for a better life.



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26 Sep 2021, 10:30 pm

ironpony wrote:
But people aren't vocal about a lot of laws though. Why is this one an exception compared to others?


If you follow the history, it's intentional. Abortion was brought into the conversation by Nixon specifically because his campaign advisors thought that being politically pro-life could turn some Catholics into Republicans (at the time, because of issues like education and healthcare, Catholics were overwhelmingly Democrat). Only then did the feminist movement pick up on it and start arguing for choice. Until that one decision, which has been overriding in politics ever since, abortion was seen primarily as a public health issue and both major parties had, at the urging of medical professionals, supported making it legal across all 50 states.

The entire conflict we continue today was manufactured for political reasons in the early 1970s and has been played in that vein ever since. Think about it, it elicits strong emotions, making it a perfect wedge issue, a way to pull people in one direction or the other.

But politics has NEVER been the right way to address the issue as I've gone through in different posts here.


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26 Sep 2021, 10:44 pm

ironpony wrote:
That's a good point. Why do Americans keep voting for democrats usually when they never do anything about the health care system? I guess they feel that their promises, although likely empty, are still better than the party that will not make that promise at all?


I find it perplexing that you see it this way.

The Democrats have done a whole lot more for our healthcare system in the past 2 decades than Republicans. Obama's expansion brought millions more into the world of health care coverage. The Republicans can't get past wanting to destroy Obama's healthcare reforms, with no idea what to put in their place, except to say it can't look like Canada or the UK's system (if you didn't know, US conservatives love to mock national healthcare systems). When in control of the House, they voted to appeal the ACA 100 times, never with a plan to put in its place. In essence, the Republicans would leave it all up to private insurance, with minimal restrictions and requirements, potentially sending us back to when insurance companies could easily reject people or charge exorbitant rates based on past medical history (I say potentially because the popularity of some controls in these areas are likely to force any plan to keep them). Trump promised better healthcare for all, but dropped his effort after realizing how complicated it was (the famous, "who knew healthcare could be so complicated.")


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26 Sep 2021, 11:03 pm

Oh okay, well I didn't think people cared about what democrats did since there is still a lot of dissatisfaction of course.

Why is it so complicated though? I mean Americans have a free police service for example, or free firefighters service, or free military defense, without having to send people who call on them large fees. So why does the medical establishment have to do it compared to other services?



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26 Sep 2021, 11:09 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, well I didn't think people cared about what democrats did since there is still a lot of dissatisfaction of course.

Why is it so complicated though? I mean Americans have a free police service for example, or free firefighters service, or free military defense, without having to send people who call on them large fees. So why does the medical establishment have to do it compared to other services?

that is a very good question that i've not found any satisfactory answers as to the GOP's moral justification for making poor people suffer.



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26 Sep 2021, 11:14 pm

auntblabby wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, well I didn't think people cared about what democrats did since there is still a lot of dissatisfaction of course.

Why is it so complicated though? I mean Americans have a free police service for example, or free firefighters service, or free military defense, without having to send people who call on them large fees. So why does the medical establishment have to do it compared to other services?

that is a very good question that i've not found any satisfactory answers as to the GOP's moral justification for making poor people suffer.


Oh okay I see. Do the democrats have an answer why they cannot fix this and run the medical establishment, like they would a police force for example?



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26 Sep 2021, 11:22 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, well I didn't think people cared about what democrats did since there is still a lot of dissatisfaction of course.

Why is it so complicated though? I mean Americans have a free police service for example, or free firefighters service, or free military defense, without having to send people who call on them large fees. So why does the medical establishment have to do it compared to other services?


There is, actually, a relatively easy way to use history to understand the difference:

Police, fire, and military are all necessary to protect the interests of the wealthy land owners.

Healthcare systems are not.


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26 Sep 2021, 11:28 pm

ironpony wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, well I didn't think people cared about what democrats did since there is still a lot of dissatisfaction of course.

Why is it so complicated though? I mean Americans have a free police service for example, or free firefighters service, or free military defense, without having to send people who call on them large fees. So why does the medical establishment have to do it compared to other services?

that is a very good question that i've not found any satisfactory answers as to the GOP's moral justification for making poor people suffer.


Oh okay I see. Do the democrats have an answer why they cannot fix this and run the medical establishment, like they would a police force for example?


Progressive Democrats believe that taking steps towards nationalized healthcare is the answer. Moderate Democrats do not believe that Americans, as a whole, will ever accept a nationalized healthcare system.

I tend to be in the later group: I just don't see Americans, as whole, accepting it. Republicans will fight tooth and nail against any attempts to move in that direction.

We can't even get Republicans to see the value in allowing Americans of any age to choose to buy into Medicare, our national medical insurance system for the elderly (which most Americans don't consider to be very good). Republicans insist an optional Medicare buy in would be one step in the door towards nationalized healthcare and refuse to budge.


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