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naturalplastic
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16 Sep 2021, 6:27 pm

Jakki wrote:
So if you were a government entity and wanted to source out potential future extremist . You might organize a big group of individuals of supporters of a earlier uprising . And have them gather together in a space where you could record them . For future tracking possibly ?


Well...a government could assign agents to pretend to be subversives who start fake revolutionary organizations-that attract real subversives. So the govt can -whatever- keep tabs on the real subversives- imprison them- kill them.

Its the oldest trick in the book. Sparta did it. It was called "the Kryptera".

The early Soviets did it via the Cheka (forunner of the KGB).

And the US FBI had informants in extremist groups both right and left. I knew a guy in college who said he witnessed people break down, cry, and confess to being FBI when he was in left wing groups. And in the Sixties there were local chapters of the KKK that had all of 12 members (of which ten would be FBI informants, and two would be real recruits to the Klan).



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16 Sep 2021, 7:38 pm

Jakki wrote:
So if you were a government entity and wanted to source out potential future extremist . You might organize a big group of individuals of supporters of a earlier uprising . And have them gather together in a space where you could record them . For future tracking possibly ?


Stranger things have happened.
The establishment, in general, is known for entrapment. 8)



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19 Sep 2021, 9:27 am

Dox47 wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well another thing, is why do Americans have to identify themselves as either democrats or republicans? If they just choose their own believes and choose to be themselves, wouldn't there be a lot less of a contest between the two, if people would just choose not to classify themselves, like that?


Good luck, if you try that, people will constantly try to fit you into their boxes, they have a very hard time with people who don't square up neatly with one side or the other. My entire time on WP, 13 years now, has been spent in large part fighting against the risible accusation that I must be a Republican because I criticize Democrats, because people here literally cannot conceptualize someone who truly doesn't belong to either party and makes up their own mind issue by issue. Thinking for yourself is hard, and most people aren't very good at it.


Well there are times when I feel people are trying to fit me into boxes. But I am not sure if I would be classified as a democrat or republican.

For example, I am all for not censoring free speech, but against defunding the police. I am for free socialized health care but against gun control. I agree with the democrats on a lot of foreign policy issues, but I disagree with them on quite a few environmental issues.

So what box would I fit into, when trying to classify myself as either a democrat or republican, if a lot of my beliefs seem mixed there?



auntblabby
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19 Sep 2021, 2:31 pm

i would be feeling more generous to the anti-gun-control folks if only so many of them were not so overwhelmingly right wing in every other respect, such as in opposing universal health care, opposing abortion, opposing universal voting rights, opposing taxing the rich, et al.



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19 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm

auntblabby wrote:
i would be feeling more generous to the anti-gun-control folks if only so many of them were not so overwhelmingly right wing in every other respect, such as in opposing universal health care, opposing abortion, opposing universal voting rights, opposing taxing the rich, et al.


I don't necessarily oppose universal health care like the sort that Canada and the UK have, but that's not what Obamacare gave us. I oppose abortion, but not for the usual reasons the right does. I favor universal voting rights, and the rich are already taxed to the hilt.



auntblabby
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19 Sep 2021, 2:39 pm

any rich person that can afford a halfway decent tax accountant, pays less total taxes than i do. just ask warren buffet about his secretary paying less total taxes than he does. it is a MYTH that the rich here pay much in taxes at all.



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19 Sep 2021, 4:04 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well there are times when I feel people are trying to fit me into boxes. But I am not sure if I would be classified as a democrat or republican.

For example, I am all for not censoring free speech, but against defunding the police. I am for free socialized health care but against gun control. I agree with the democrats on a lot of foreign policy issues, but I disagree with them on quite a few environmental issues.

So what box would I fit into, when trying to classify myself as either a democrat or republican, if a lot of my beliefs seem mixed there?


That's honestly not that far of where I'm at, I tend to favor the Republicans at the local level because my state is super liberal and I'm trying to dilute that a little, but I'm a wildcard on national elections, I'll go D, R, or 3rd party depending on who's running. Just tell people you're an independent and vote for whoever you like best, it's mostly online that you'll encounter the people who insist you have to be one or the other, IRL people don't really care so much.


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19 Sep 2021, 4:08 pm

auntblabby wrote:
any rich person that can afford a halfway decent tax accountant, pays less total taxes than i do. just ask warren buffet about his secretary paying less total taxes than he does. it is a MYTH that the rich here pay much in taxes at all.


Image

The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes, the top 25% pay 87% of all federal income tax.


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Pepe
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19 Sep 2021, 8:19 pm

ironpony wrote:

Well there are times when I feel people are trying to fit me into boxes. But I am not sure if I would be classified as a democrat or republican.


For some, if you aren't a Democrat, you are right-wing.
Go figure. :?



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19 Sep 2021, 8:21 pm

auntblabby wrote:
any rich person that can afford a halfway decent tax accountant, pays less total taxes than i do. just ask warren buffet about his secretary paying less total taxes than he does. it is a MYTH that the rich here pay much in taxes at all.


It is not a binary. 8)



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19 Sep 2021, 8:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:

That's honestly not that far of where I'm at, I tend to favor the Republicans at the local level because my state is super liberal and I'm trying to dilute that a little, but I'm a wildcard on national elections, I'll go D, R, or 3rd party depending on who's running. Just tell people you're an independent and vote for whoever you like best, it's mostly online that you'll encounter the people who insist you have to be one or the other, IRL people don't really care so much.


Yes, your *one* vote will dilute it *a little*. :mrgreen:



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19 Sep 2021, 8:24 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Image

The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes, the top 25% pay 87% of all federal income tax.


Please don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative story. :mrgreen:



Brictoria
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19 Sep 2021, 10:44 pm

Dox47 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
any rich person that can afford a halfway decent tax accountant, pays less total taxes than i do. just ask warren buffet about his secretary paying less total taxes than he does. it is a MYTH that the rich here pay much in taxes at all.


Image

The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes, the top 25% pay 87% of all federal income tax.


This would seem a more appropriate place to look for "lost" tax income:
Quote:
For six years, Audrey Ellis and Adam Feuerstein worked together at PwC, the giant accounting firm, helping the world’s biggest companies avoid taxes.

In mid-2018, one of Mr. Feuerstein’s clients, an influential association of real estate companies, was trying to persuade government officials that its members should qualify for a new federal tax break. Mr. Feuerstein knew just the person to turn to for help. Ms. Ellis had recently joined the Treasury Department, and she was drafting the rules for this very deduction.

That summer, Ms. Ellis met with Mr. Feuerstein and his client’s lobbyists. The next week, the Treasury granted their wish — a decision potentially worth billions of dollars to PwC’s clients.

About a year later, Ms. Ellis returned to PwC, where she was immediately promoted to partner. She and Mr. Feuerstein now work together advising large companies on how to exploit wrinkles in the tax regulations that Ms. Ellis helped write.

Ms. Ellis’s case — detailed in public records and by people with direct knowledge of her work at the Treasury and at PwC — is no outlier.

The largest U.S. accounting firms have perfected a remarkably effective behind-the-scenes system to promote their interests in Washington. Their tax lawyers take senior jobs at the Treasury Department, where they write policies that are frequently favorable to their former corporate clients, often with the expectation that they will soon return to their old employers. The firms welcome them back with loftier titles and higher pay, according to public records reviewed by The New York Times and interviews with current and former government and industry officials.

From their government posts, many of the industry veterans approved loopholes long exploited by their former firms, gave tax breaks to former clients and rolled back efforts to rein in tax shelters — with enormous impact.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/19/business/accounting-firms-tax-loopholes-government.html



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20 Sep 2021, 1:17 am

Brictoria wrote:
This would seem a more appropriate place to look for "lost" tax income:
Quote:
For six years, Audrey Ellis and Adam Feuerstein worked together at PwC, the giant accounting firm, helping the world’s biggest companies avoid taxes.

In mid-2018, one of Mr. Feuerstein’s clients, an influential association of real estate companies, was trying to persuade government officials that its members should qualify for a new federal tax break. Mr. Feuerstein knew just the person to turn to for help. Ms. Ellis had recently joined the Treasury Department, and she was drafting the rules for this very deduction.

That summer, Ms. Ellis met with Mr. Feuerstein and his client’s lobbyists. The next week, the Treasury granted their wish — a decision potentially worth billions of dollars to PwC’s clients.

About a year later, Ms. Ellis returned to PwC, where she was immediately promoted to partner. She and Mr. Feuerstein now work together advising large companies on how to exploit wrinkles in the tax regulations that Ms. Ellis helped write.

Ms. Ellis’s case — detailed in public records and by people with direct knowledge of her work at the Treasury and at PwC — is no outlier.

The largest U.S. accounting firms have perfected a remarkably effective behind-the-scenes system to promote their interests in Washington. Their tax lawyers take senior jobs at the Treasury Department, where they write policies that are frequently favorable to their former corporate clients, often with the expectation that they will soon return to their old employers. The firms welcome them back with loftier titles and higher pay, according to public records reviewed by The New York Times and interviews with current and former government and industry officials.

From their government posts, many of the industry veterans approved loopholes long exploited by their former firms, gave tax breaks to former clients and rolled back efforts to rein in tax shelters — with enormous impact.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/19/business/accounting-firms-tax-loopholes-government.html


God, I hate big business.
And former politicians work on this principle, also. :roll:



Brictoria
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20 Sep 2021, 2:08 am

Pepe wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
This would seem a more appropriate place to look for "lost" tax income:
Quote:
For six years, Audrey Ellis and Adam Feuerstein worked together at PwC, the giant accounting firm, helping the world’s biggest companies avoid taxes.

In mid-2018, one of Mr. Feuerstein’s clients, an influential association of real estate companies, was trying to persuade government officials that its members should qualify for a new federal tax break. Mr. Feuerstein knew just the person to turn to for help. Ms. Ellis had recently joined the Treasury Department, and she was drafting the rules for this very deduction.

That summer, Ms. Ellis met with Mr. Feuerstein and his client’s lobbyists. The next week, the Treasury granted their wish — a decision potentially worth billions of dollars to PwC’s clients.

About a year later, Ms. Ellis returned to PwC, where she was immediately promoted to partner. She and Mr. Feuerstein now work together advising large companies on how to exploit wrinkles in the tax regulations that Ms. Ellis helped write.

Ms. Ellis’s case — detailed in public records and by people with direct knowledge of her work at the Treasury and at PwC — is no outlier.

The largest U.S. accounting firms have perfected a remarkably effective behind-the-scenes system to promote their interests in Washington. Their tax lawyers take senior jobs at the Treasury Department, where they write policies that are frequently favorable to their former corporate clients, often with the expectation that they will soon return to their old employers. The firms welcome them back with loftier titles and higher pay, according to public records reviewed by The New York Times and interviews with current and former government and industry officials.

From their government posts, many of the industry veterans approved loopholes long exploited by their former firms, gave tax breaks to former clients and rolled back efforts to rein in tax shelters — with enormous impact.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/19/business/accounting-firms-tax-loopholes-government.html


God, I hate big business.
And former politicians work on this principle, also. :roll:


Yes - The "speaker's fees" and "book deals" once they leave office are merely a delayed pay-off for doing their master's bidding while in power - The higher quantity deals\amount paid for them a politician gets after leaving power, the more they were working in the interests of those paying them, and the less they were looking out for the average voter.



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20 Sep 2021, 3:33 am

Dox47 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
any rich person that can afford a halfway decent tax accountant, pays less total taxes than i do. just ask warren buffet about his secretary paying less total taxes than he does. it is a MYTH that the rich here pay much in taxes at all.


Image

The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes, the top 25% pay 87% of all federal income tax.

you believe that fascist grover norquist? i don't, that is rubbish. i don't want that psycho strangling ME in his bathtub.