There is something wrong with "workers mentality"

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Fireblossom
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10 Sep 2021, 10:13 am

Nades wrote:
I have more than two properties but they didn't come easily. I managed to buy them from 8 years of 55 hour weeks on average and relentless saving (cutting back on almost everything, no new gadgets, hand me downs, cheap second hand car, cheap clothes).

I wouldn't want to be heavily taxed. They way I see it, if I can manage an average of a house every two years on a pretty basic job then that's probably a reflection something is wrong with everyone else around me. I don't need to look very far to see people on less than me with new iPhones and cars on finance thinking they're getting screwed over by people like me. We live in a impulsive and materialistic society that prioritizes immediate gratification over long term planning. If it means someone of modest means can still outcompete these people with more boring purchases (like houses) then that's not a problem that needs to be addressed. A billionaire on the other hands buying all the houses does...but not me.


I think I get what you mean... my lifestyle is a little similiar to yours (minus the house buying), but for a long time it was simply because I had to live like that since I couldn't afford to live in any other way (except perhaps going back to my parents' house, but for me that was (and is) an option only if the only alternative is homelessness.)

I know people, as in adults without children, who make a lot more money than me yet who are broke or very close to it at the end of the month, while me, well, I'm able to save quite a lot on an average month. Oh, and most of these people are able bodied and with no serious illnesses, while I'm physically disabled from birth and need a constant medication for a chronic disease... seriously wonder how much I'd be able to save if I was born with the privilege of being able bodied... This month's already been a bit expensive even though it's not even halfway over, but I'm not even close to reaching my monthly income with my spending, so all's good. In practice, that is. I've been managing to save at least a certain sum for quite a while now so when I suddenly can't, it eats me away mentally.

Anyway, while there are definitely a lot of people who are barely hanging in there despite keeping spending to minimum, there are also many who're struggling with money not because they only earn a little, but because they're reckless spenders. Of course, using money to newest technology, going to cafes and eating out a lot, buying lots of clothes etc. are all well and good if that's what a person wants to do with their money instead of saving, but then they shouldn't complain about being unable to save any money. My main reason for living the way I do, aside from wanting to save for harder times, is that I want to travel. There are lots of places I wanna go... I once had a conversation here with someone who complained about not being able to afford to travel, but that person apparently ate out a lot, ate a lot of instant meals etc. So, in my opinion, it was more of a choice on their part; they chose to live in a way they wanted to and sacrifice their dreams of travel, while I prefer to do things the other way around. I save money where I can in my daily life so that I can travel.

Really, if we look at things from purely a logical perspective, then investing extra money or keeping it aside for emergencies are the best ways to go, but sometimes people want to buy or do things they enjoy. And that's fine when they do it with their own money. It's about what one wants to use their lives for.



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10 Sep 2021, 11:25 am

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
The job of an estate agent appears straightforward enough too but I don't know exactly what it entails. I just look at s house and wonder how much it's gonna cost me in the long run.
Real estate agent job requires quite a lot of human interaction so I guess your niche is the better choice for you ;)


I actually wouldn't mind being an estate agent. I feel I know houses well enough to be half decent at it and I enjoy mooching inside them too. The people aspect of it would be tolerable considering my current job is already long weeks dealing with irate people who speak to each other in ways you would never believe.

I suppose coming full circle to the original post on this thread. Working is pretty good provided you make an effort to get your foot in the door. Once the horror of a full 40 hour week is over it quickly becomes tolerable even to an autistic but if you haven't worked for years it'll hit you like a ton of bricks for a month or so like it did to me. Being able to handle a full 40 hour week opens up a lot of opportunities that would once have been scoffed at as overbearing.

It's not to say go nuts with the jobs though. From time to time I have to do a full week of 12 hour days and I would never recommend that for anyone. That is genuinely oppressive and horrific....still not "slavery" but sadly very occasionally part of my job. A 40 hour work week being frowned upon though isn't helpful to society as a whole. It's just what's needed to maintain everyone's lifestyle.



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10 Sep 2021, 11:40 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Nades wrote:
I have more than two properties but they didn't come easily. I managed to buy them from 8 years of 55 hour weeks on average and relentless saving (cutting back on almost everything, no new gadgets, hand me downs, cheap second hand car, cheap clothes).

I wouldn't want to be heavily taxed. They way I see it, if I can manage an average of a house every two years on a pretty basic job then that's probably a reflection something is wrong with everyone else around me. I don't need to look very far to see people on less than me with new iPhones and cars on finance thinking they're getting screwed over by people like me. We live in a impulsive and materialistic society that prioritizes immediate gratification over long term planning. If it means someone of modest means can still outcompete these people with more boring purchases (like houses) then that's not a problem that needs to be addressed. A billionaire on the other hands buying all the houses does...but not me.


I think I get what you mean... my lifestyle is a little similiar to yours (minus the house buying), but for a long time it was simply because I had to live like that since I couldn't afford to live in any other way (except perhaps going back to my parents' house, but for me that was (and is) an option only if the only alternative is homelessness.)

I know people, as in adults without children, who make a lot more money than me yet who are broke or very close to it at the end of the month, while me, well, I'm able to save quite a lot on an average month. Oh, and most of these people are able bodied and with no serious illnesses, while I'm physically disabled from birth and need a constant medication for a chronic disease... seriously wonder how much I'd be able to save if I was born with the privilege of being able bodied... This month's already been a bit expensive even though it's not even halfway over, but I'm not even close to reaching my monthly income with my spending, so all's good. In practice, that is. I've been managing to save at least a certain sum for quite a while now so when I suddenly can't, it eats me away mentally.

Anyway, while there are definitely a lot of people who are barely hanging in there despite keeping spending to minimum, there are also many who're struggling with money not because they only earn a little, but because they're reckless spenders. Of course, using money to newest technology, going to cafes and eating out a lot, buying lots of clothes etc. are all well and good if that's what a person wants to do with their money instead of saving, but then they shouldn't complain about being unable to save any money. My main reason for living the way I do, aside from wanting to save for harder times, is that I want to travel. There are lots of places I wanna go... I once had a conversation here with someone who complained about not being able to afford to travel, but that person apparently ate out a lot, ate a lot of instant meals etc. So, in my opinion, it was more of a choice on their part; they chose to live in a way they wanted to and sacrifice their dreams of travel, while I prefer to do things the other way around. I save money where I can in my daily life so that I can travel.

Really, if we look at things from purely a logical perspective, then investing extra money or keeping it aside for emergencies are the best ways to go, but sometimes people want to buy or do things they enjoy. And that's fine when they do it with their own money. It's about what one wants to use their lives for.


I work in a blue collar field and see the problems that reckless spending causes. People on their 40s who are making money like you wouldn't believe, who should be set for life if they were sensible.....just blowing it all on...well...blow. Gambling, drugs and alcohol is endemic in my field and everyone knows it. They piss test people at random such is the problem.

I just save a lot by circumstance, not by choice. Autism for me has been a bit of a social death so buying the latest phone or the newest Mercadies has been bottom on my list of priorities. I don't need to impress anyone because I don't know many people to begin with. It's no coincidence that its the most socially able who seem to be the most reckless with money.



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10 Sep 2021, 12:05 pm

I'm lucky to live in social circles where you don't impress people by spending money. Or I just don't get it and I don't give a damn. I can always claim environmental concerns or something for wearing clothes until they're all holes.
The reality is, I hate shopping :> and I don't like to own too many things. Small amount of things is easier to keep in some order.


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11 Sep 2021, 5:12 am

magz wrote:
I'm lucky to live in social circles where you don't impress people by spending money. Or I just don't get it and I don't give a damn. I can always claim environmental concerns or something for wearing clothes until they're all holes.
The reality is, I hate shopping :> and I don't like to own too many things. Small amount of things is easier to keep in some order.



I'm the same but autism has made it difficult to even get into social circles in the first place. Me ending up saving a lot of money month to month that I either have to put into shares or property isn't really a choice and more of a life circumstance of living with autism. Having savings just makes me ineligible for any benefits and devalues money in bank accounts with terrible interest rates as I'm certainly not spending it on socializing as much as I would like to.

Drifting into being a landlord wasn't a result of privilege so taxing landlords heavily always agro's me a bit. I think cutting back on a lot of benefits is a better way forward for everyone unless someone actually needs them that is.



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12 Sep 2021, 4:11 am

Nades wrote:
I think cutting back on a lot of benefits is a better way forward for everyone unless someone actually needs them that is.


One thing that's tricky about benefits paid with tax money is that even when many people agree that everyone should have the right to be able to fill their basic needs, people can't come to an agreement what those basic needs are in practice. To some, it means that they are filled if the person has a roof over their head, food to eat and medical care available, and if they want something extra, then they need to work for it. Others, on the other hand, believe that everyone should have a right to buy small things that make them happy from time to time (books, games, going to movies, eating out etc.) That's what makes talking about benefits so tricky; people aren't in agreement what the basic income is supposed to cover. So, what kind of situation would a person have to be in in order to be counted as "actually needing" the benefits?



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12 Sep 2021, 8:00 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Nades wrote:
I think cutting back on a lot of benefits is a better way forward for everyone unless someone actually needs them that is.


One thing that's tricky about benefits paid with tax money is that even when many people agree that everyone should have the right to be able to fill their basic needs, people can't come to an agreement what those basic needs are in practice. To some, it means that they are filled if the person has a roof over their head, food to eat and medical care available, and if they want something extra, then they need to work for it. Others, on the other hand, believe that everyone should have a right to buy small things that make them happy from time to time (books, games, going to movies, eating out etc.) That's what makes talking about benefits so tricky; people aren't in agreement what the basic income is supposed to cover. So, what kind of situation would a person have to be in in order to be counted as "actually needing" the benefits?


To me it's a roof over someone's head with food and utilities paid with a bit of.money for lesure.

The issue I have with the British benefits system is that this is given in cash form only which is nothing but harmful (and extremely expensive and inefficient) for many people on benefits. Almost everyone I know that isn't physically disabled but on benefits are on them because they're extremely impulsive people with limited intelligence who can't hold down a job. Almost none of them have passed highschool with any meaningful qualification and just have no clue about the benefits of forward planning.....one even thought steam came in prepackaged cardboard boxes when doing a cooking class. These are often the types of people the benefits system just throws their entire support network at in cash and stupidly think they can handle it when they clearly can't.

Giving them money just turns them into their own worst enemy and never helps them.

I think food stamps are far better for a lot of people on benefits and I'm fully against UBI. I've gone through some of my gripes about UBI but I don't trust a lot of people with ASD with their finances too.



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13 Sep 2021, 1:51 am

Hmmmm...well, apparently in the Netherlands people are given enough to get by without working, though the vast majority of people do work. Being given enough to get by doesn't equate to living large, for one, and also, people do generally enjoy having something to do. Obviously, there needs to be a balance, and of course, there are probably plenty of logistics to work out should other countries wish to adopt such a system, as I highly doubt it's anywhere near as simple as flipping a switch.

I for one am in support of a system that is more balanced in its approach to work culture. As work is a means to an end, our culture tends to overvalue it, and that's saying nothing about cultures in countries such as Japan that take it to draconian extremes. But, I also don't believe that work in and of itself is a bad thing.

I suppose what I'm more in support of is for a system where people are encouraged to find their vocation, first and foremost. That could be a job, it could be something else. What's important though is that it's something that resonates with them. There are of course a lucky few whose vocation and job are one and the same, and those are the people who ultimately win in life.

Unfortunately, so many other people are forced into a job they don't much care for just to make ends meet. The system doesn't care either way, so long as all the jobs that need to be filled, are. Before anyone brings it up, as much as post-secondary institutions like to pretend they're about helping people "reach their potential", they too are first and foremost about pumping out workers, albeit, for those positions that require certain credentials.

I can't actually say I have a concrete solution, mind you. The system is what it is, and is unlikely to change until its inevitable crash and burn. I don't think my calling in life is to change it, or at least, I don't think it's to have any kind of direct involvement in such a process. All I know is, it could be better.



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13 Sep 2021, 2:35 am

^ when I visited Netherlands, all the bus drivers, garbage collectors and waiters looked like immigrants... almost no tall blond people in mundane jobs at all, despite a lot of them on the streets and in Uni.
It was still better than what they had in Belgium and France at the time (it was the time of Charlie Hebdo killings) but raises a question about un-mentioned layers of this approach - that some jobs that no one feels vocation for but need to be done anyway are still taken by people who probably aren't entitled to the benefits and just need to make ends meet...


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13 Sep 2021, 3:16 am

Nades wrote:
To me it's a roof over someone's head with food and utilities paid with a bit of.money for lesure.

The issue I have with the British benefits system is that this is given in cash form only which is nothing but harmful (and extremely expensive and inefficient) for many people on benefits. Almost everyone I know that isn't physically disabled but on benefits are on them because they're extremely impulsive people with limited intelligence who can't hold down a job. Almost none of them have passed highschool with any meaningful qualification and just have no clue about the benefits of forward planning.....one even thought steam came in prepackaged cardboard boxes when doing a cooking class. These are often the types of people the benefits system just throws their entire support network at in cash and stupidly think they can handle it when they clearly can't.

Giving them money just turns them into their own worst enemy and never helps them.

I think food stamps are far better for a lot of people on benefits and I'm fully against UBI. I've gone through some of my gripes about UBI but I don't trust a lot of people with ASD with their finances too.

That's one of the reasons why I'm against benefits in cash. Before UB Income, I think UB Healthcare, UB Education, even UB Housing and UB Food should go.

Otherwise, UBI will get spent: by unlucky people - on necessities with elevated prices when oligopolic providers know you have the money; by bad choicers - on booze, drugs, cigarettes, hazard and newest iPhone.


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13 Sep 2021, 3:48 am

Nades wrote:
To me it's a roof over someone's head with food and utilities paid with a bit of.money for lesure.

The issue I have with the British benefits system is that this is given in cash form only which is nothing but harmful (and extremely expensive and inefficient) for many people on benefits. Almost everyone I know that isn't physically disabled but on benefits are on them because they're extremely impulsive people with limited intelligence who can't hold down a job. Almost none of them have passed highschool with any meaningful qualification and just have no clue about the benefits of forward planning.....one even thought steam came in prepackaged cardboard boxes when doing a cooking class. These are often the types of people the benefits system just throws their entire support network at in cash and stupidly think they can handle it when they clearly can't.

Giving them money just turns them into their own worst enemy and never helps them.

I think food stamps are far better for a lot of people on benefits and I'm fully against UBI. I've gone through some of my gripes about UBI but I don't trust a lot of people with ASD with their finances too.


Good points. Do you think these people are simply too unintelligent to get a grasp of their own finances, or do you think it'd be possible for them to learn with proper, specific guidance on how to run a household? I mean, I'm sure there are both, but which do you think are in the majority? Even if lots of these people are simple minded, if proper education on managing their finances was given, perhaps they would learn, eventually. Maybe that should be something to focus on instead of UBI? Or maybe proving that one can handle such things could be a condition to get UBI, and those who can't pass it would get food stamps and live in some kind of supervised housing?

I know this is a stereotype, but I would think that people on the spectrum would actually be better than average at handling their finances since, according to the stereotype, autistic people like plans and predictability. So, you'd think those of us on the spectrum could make even small sums work better than NTs trough diligent planning... or am I biased somehow? I don't know, despite being bad at math and always having had to deal with low income, budgeting my basic living tends to come rather easily to me.



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13 Sep 2021, 1:51 pm

magz wrote:
^ when I visited Netherlands, all the bus drivers, garbage collectors and waiters looked like immigrants... almost no tall blond people in mundane jobs at all, despite a lot of them on the streets and in Uni.
It was still better than what they had in Belgium and France at the time (it was the time of Charlie Hebdo killings) but raises a question about un-mentioned layers of this approach - that some jobs that no one feels vocation for but need to be done anyway are still taken by people who probably aren't entitled to the benefits and just need to make ends meet...
Hmmm...good point. Of course, it's probably true in pretty much any system that there are people below the system propping it up. Let's not get into what allows Capitalism to keep on trucking on to this day, as it certainly puts even minimum wage service jobs into perspective. :cry: I doubt our species could come up with a system that doesn't have imperfections.



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13 Sep 2021, 1:53 pm

Tross wrote:
[...] what allows Capitalism to keep on trucking on to this day...
... is cheap, disposable labor.


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13 Sep 2021, 2:30 pm

magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
To me it's a roof over someone's head with food and utilities paid with a bit of.money for lesure.

The issue I have with the British benefits system is that this is given in cash form only which is nothing but harmful (and extremely expensive and inefficient) for many people on benefits. Almost everyone I know that isn't physically disabled but on benefits are on them because they're extremely impulsive people with limited intelligence who can't hold down a job. Almost none of them have passed highschool with any meaningful qualification and just have no clue about the benefits of forward planning.....one even thought steam came in prepackaged cardboard boxes when doing a cooking class. These are often the types of people the benefits system just throws their entire support network at in cash and stupidly think they can handle it when they clearly can't.

Giving them money just turns them into their own worst enemy and never helps them.

I think food stamps are far better for a lot of people on benefits and I'm fully against UBI. I've gone through some of my gripes about UBI but I don't trust a lot of people with ASD with their finances too.

That's one of the reasons why I'm against benefits in cash. Before UB Income, I think UB Healthcare, UB Education, even UB Housing and UB Food should go.

Otherwise, UBI will get spent: by unlucky people - on necessities with elevated prices when oligopolic providers know you have the money; by bad choicers - on booze, drugs, cigarettes, hazard and newest iPhone.


Yip. Booze, fags and mags is usually how state given money gets spent with many on benefits. It just runs in the family.



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13 Sep 2021, 2:38 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
Nades wrote:
To me it's a roof over someone's head with food and utilities paid with a bit of.money for lesure.

The issue I have with the British benefits system is that this is given in cash form only which is nothing but harmful (and extremely expensive and inefficient) for many people on benefits. Almost everyone I know that isn't physically disabled but on benefits are on them because they're extremely impulsive people with limited intelligence who can't hold down a job. Almost none of them have passed highschool with any meaningful qualification and just have no clue about the benefits of forward planning.....one even thought steam came in prepackaged cardboard boxes when doing a cooking class. These are often the types of people the benefits system just throws their entire support network at in cash and stupidly think they can handle it when they clearly can't.

Giving them money just turns them into their own worst enemy and never helps them.

I think food stamps are far better for a lot of people on benefits and I'm fully against UBI. I've gone through some of my gripes about UBI but I don't trust a lot of people with ASD with their finances too.


Good points. Do you think these people are simply too unintelligent to get a grasp of their own finances, or do you think it'd be possible for them to learn with proper, specific guidance on how to run a household? I mean, I'm sure there are both, but which do you think are in the majority? Even if lots of these people are simple minded, if proper education on managing their finances was given, perhaps they would learn, eventually. Maybe that should be something to focus on instead of UBI? Or maybe proving that one can handle such things could be a condition to get UBI, and those who can't pass it would get food stamps and live in some kind of supervised housing?

I know this is a stereotype, but I would think that people on the spectrum would actually be better than average at handling their finances since, according to the stereotype, autistic people like plans and predictability. So, you'd think those of us on the spectrum could make even small sums work better than NTs trough diligent planning... or am I biased somehow? I don't know, despite being bad at math and always having had to deal with low income, budgeting my basic living tends to come rather easily to me.



I think they're to unintelligent full stop. I live in state hand-outs county and have always been around these people and know exactly how they live. They will never understand good finances and are almost beyond hope. Any attempt to teach them is seen as systematic oppression in their eyes....they want their booze and cigs and that's all that matters and you dare argue against them. They don't care if you're a support worker, psychiatrist, doctor or even Warren Buffet......you're always wrong when it comes to money and they're always right. Their mind-set have been hardwired into their brain from birth by feckless parents and they know no other way of life.

The only way to re-educate them is to simply replace almost all of their money with food stamps and prepaid utilities. They need all of their financial decisions made for them if they like it or not. The first thing they can do is give their biggest expense and waste of tax payers money (housing benefits) directly to landlords because god what a cock up that became. Yeah....that's another story. The government tried to "empower" them by giving them their tax paid rent money directly to them instead of landlords. Apparently it was an attempt to give them more of a sense of control and autonomy over their finances to make them feel better about themselves and now landlords won't touch them with a barge pole. Decisions like that with tax payers money should never be put in the hands of impulsive tenants. It should be strictly between the landlord and local authorities and the tenant should never know what's going on behind closed doors.



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13 Sep 2021, 3:11 pm

When people can sell their "food stamps" (usually a pre-paid debit card) for as low as fifty cents on the dollar, and use the cash to buy booze and drugs, there are still some adjustments to be made to The System -- maybe incorporating biometric verification into the use of the food stamp debit cards would help; but some clever scofflaw would likely find some way to bypass that as well.


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