Microwave/electronic "flamethrowers" in 1955/1972?

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Iamaparakeet
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11 Sep 2021, 7:14 am

Okay, this is my wondering if these had ever actually been made, since I've only heard about them from "conspiracy theorists" so far.

At timestamp 27:42, "the crudest of these armaments would be a sort of electromagnetic flamethrower with greater range than chemical types. ... at the Naval Medical Research Institute as long ago as 1955."



And here another thing says 1972, '(E) "A U.S. Department of Defense document said that the Army has tested a microwave weapon. It was an extremely powerful 'electronic flamethrower'. " (From Electromagnetic Pollution)'
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_cointelpro06.htm

So, what would these have been like if they did exist? Something using a battery backpack, or some turret like device operated remotely and powered by the grid? Would they be some kind of directional microwave antenna, like the millimeter wave ones atop humvees, but intended to cook rather than dissuade? Did they exist?


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11 Sep 2021, 12:01 pm

What is your security level, citizen?


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11 Sep 2021, 12:13 pm

Well ...you would aim your microwave maser device at that enemy tank. Set the dial for "well done". Then shoot it at that tank.

And then after X number of seconds your device will go "BING!" indicating that the five man crew of the enemy tank is...."ready".

And you put on your kitchen mit and open the tank hatch... and smell the aroma of freshly cooked meatloaf!

The only problem is...as you're suggesting...the power source.

You cant just plug such a device into an outlet on the battlefield. So it would have to use some kind high powered batteries stored in the infantryman's back pack. But conventional flamethrowers use tanks of the oil and gas mix used in present day flamethrowers. Maybe such devices could be solar powered. But they would have to be charged beforehand between battles. The sun couldnt charge up a device like that on the spot.



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11 Sep 2021, 12:52 pm

Don't have the exact answer to your question, but here are some things I know about broadcast power in other areas:

The story goes that the microwave oven was discovered when it was noticed that radar dishes transmitted heat on aircraft carriers. One story was that those on night watch noticed feeling warmer when they passed the dish so they would then go there on purpose to get warm. Another story was that someone had a bar of chocolate in his pocket and it melted.

Lazers were suggested when Regan was president as anti-missile weapons and also "rail guns" which used electrostatic acceleration of bits of metal as a sort of anti-missile gun. The idea was if we could see the missiles from space, perhaps we could also defend from space. The project was popularly called "Star Wars". It was partially real engineering / scientific development and partially propaganda - hard to tell exactly how much of each. If we could convince the Russians we could do it then they might give us an advantage in negotiations - and they might spend money on a similar project which could then not be spent on other things. "Politics is stupid but important".

Space based solar also uses broadcast power as part of the idea - if you want to capture the solar energy in space and use it on earth (you might not - you might want to use it in space on on the moon, on Mars, etc) you need a way to get the power to earth. Microwaves and Lasers have been suggested. The devil is in the details.

I read of a small start up company that could recharge a phone battery or other small piece of electronics using ultra sound. The real trick was a way to detect the target in 3d and broadcast the ultrasound from several different locations at once so only the place where the waves overlapped received the power. It was supposed to work, but I never heard about it again.

With some of these ideas the trick is dollars more than physics - it might work but cost much more than the alternatives already available. With space based solar the one cost it loss from atmospheric interference. With that one there are some many people working on it and so much power available in space that I think it will really happen sooner or later.

Nikola Tesla was supposed to have experimented with broadcast power as well.

Some amateur HAM radio operators use a trick where they use power from a local strong radio station as a power source and use the power to amplify a further away and weaker signal. A neat trick.

You might also be interested in this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart%27s_Funnies


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Iamaparakeet
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11 Sep 2021, 8:43 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Well ...you would aim your microwave maser device at that enemy tank. Set the dial for "well done". Then shoot it at that tank.

And then after X number of seconds your device will go "BING!" indicating that the five man crew of the enemy tank is...."ready".

And you put on your kitchen mit and open the tank hatch... and smell the aroma of freshly cooked meatloaf!

The only problem is...as you're suggesting...the power source.

You cant just plug such a device into an outlet on the battlefield. So it would have to use some kind high powered batteries stored in the infantryman's back pack. But conventional flamethrowers use tanks of the oil and gas mix used in present day flamethrowers. Maybe such devices could be solar powered. But they would have to be charged beforehand between battles. The sun couldnt charge up a device like that on the spot.


I'd imagine any armored vehicles likely would act as Faraday cages so far as crew would be concerned, though it might mess with electronics a bit.

Yeah, for a backpack it would either have to be extremely heavy and not useful for very long, or possibly using an RTG to slowly charge the batteries between uses, or have a small reactor somehow. Or possibly a gas motor with an alternator. IDK if they had much in the way of solar panels back then, but yeah a solar array would be fairly large if useful for immediate wattage or take tons of time for a smaller surface area.


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Iamaparakeet
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11 Sep 2021, 8:57 pm

Fenn wrote:
Don't have the exact answer to your question, but here are some things I know about broadcast power in other areas:

The story goes that the microwave oven was discovered when it was noticed that radar dishes transmitted heat on aircraft carriers. One story was that those on night watch noticed feeling warmer when they passed the dish so they would then go there on purpose to get warm. Another story was that someone had a bar of chocolate in his pocket and it melted.

Lazers were suggested when Regan was president as anti-missile weapons and also "rail guns" which used electrostatic acceleration of bits of metal as a sort of anti-missile gun. The idea was if we could see the missiles from space, perhaps we could also defend from space. The project was popularly called "Star Wars". It was partially real engineering / scientific development and partially propaganda - hard to tell exactly how much of each. If we could convince the Russians we could do it then they might give us an advantage in negotiations - and they might spend money on a similar project which could then not be spent on other things. "Politics is stupid but important".

Space based solar also uses broadcast power as part of the idea - if you want to capture the solar energy in space and use it on earth (you might not - you might want to use it in space on on the moon, on Mars, etc) you need a way to get the power to earth. Microwaves and Lasers have been suggested. The devil is in the details.

I read of a small start up company that could recharge a phone battery or other small piece of electronics using ultra sound. The real trick was a way to detect the target in 3d and broadcast the ultrasound from several different locations at once so only the place where the waves overlapped received the power. It was supposed to work, but I never heard about it again.

With some of these ideas the trick is dollars more than physics - it might work but cost much more than the alternatives already available. With space based solar the one cost it loss from atmospheric interference. With that one there are some many people working on it and so much power available in space that I think it will really happen sooner or later.

Nikola Tesla was supposed to have experimented with broadcast power as well.

Some amateur HAM radio operators use a trick where they use power from a local strong radio station as a power source and use the power to amplify a further away and weaker signal. A neat trick.

You might also be interested in this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart%27s_Funnies


Had to suck to be a radar tech back the the early days, especially finding out you'd been sterilized later.

I suppose much of this kind of information could be a political psyop of a sort.

I do recall some things by Zubrin about how space based power transfer via microwaves would be prone to accidentally roasting adjacent surface areas next to the ground station, though he said it in the forms of jokes that I don't recall the exact wording of. I think it was in "How to live on Mars" or one of his videos if they're still on YouTube or wherever else. Probably quite useful as an orbital weapon system, kinda like the ion cannon for GDI in Command & Conquer. I'd rather the power transfer system be through systems of batteries, using cargo ships with mylar sails. Or if quantum coupling in Ian Douglas' novels like Starstrike is actually useful then that would be even better. Risk of accidentally, or "accidentally" frying things is a bit too high with microwave beam power transfer.

Interesting they were going to use ultrasound. Piezoelectric microphones probably. For resonance with ultrasound they would have to be smaller, though smaller also means less surface area to absorb sound to convert the energy's form. Might make more sense to use a larger microphone, more collection area, and probably would work fairly well in loud places like factories. Maybe a cell phone cover could have that.

I suppose going through the atmosphere, space based solar might be useful for creating lightning. Use a laser to make a plasma channel, then make some voltage differences with the microwave beam.


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Fenn
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12 Sep 2021, 9:57 am

Truth is stranger than fiction some times. I once saw a contest on tv where people were competing with ideas related to a "space elevator". One problem to be solved was how to create a car that could lift itself (there is a limit on the length of cable you can use in an elevator with the power at the top - the longer the cable the more mass, the more mass the more power you need to lift - then you need a thinker cable - then you have more mass - there comes a point where you just cannot make the elevator any taller - same problem with existing ultra tall sky scrapers). The obvious thing to do is to put the electric motor on the car and have it climb the cable - but then you need the power source on the car too - the longer the climb the more power - the more power the bigger the battery - the bigger the battery the more mass - the more mass the more power (and stronger cable). So the idea was to just not put the power source on the car - instead use broadcast power. they set up a cable about 50 or 60 feet in length and tested a number of ideas from different competitors. Some competitors used readily available photoelectric panels and proposed using a high wattage laser as the power transmission. Said laser was not available for the test so they used several powerful spotlights to replace it for the test. And it worked, though it was hard to keep the spotlights focused on the car as it climbed. It was fun to watch and see the teams interviewed.

Caltech is doing some serious research on space based solar. They have a sugar daddy who gave them a million dollars (or some huge chunk of change). You can find lots about it on youtube. The US Navy is also doing research and have done some experiments using high altitude planes in place of space satellites - also to be found on youtube. Like the early days of experimental aircraft - the numbers you need to make it work just have never been collected so you have to experiment to get them. The Chinese are up to the same thing.

My personal suggestion for avoiding the "oops I missed" problem with spaced solar broadcast power is put the collection station on a ocean based oil platform - or similar structure just for the purpose. If you miss you boil some sea water and kill some fishes but you don't take out a major metropolitan area. Like an oil tanker spill - a big deal to be avoided, but no loss of human life.

There is a legend - might be true - probably not - no way to prove it either way - that Archimedes used mirrors to focus the sun on enemy ships at sea and set fire to the sails.

http://www.unmuseum.org/burning_mirror.htm

The times they-are-a-changing.


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16 Sep 2021, 2:35 am

I would love it if it were true. The story about Archemedes using solar power to burn up the enemy navy.

But for me the story is kinda debunked.

First: the first references to the incident were in the late middle ages ( like fifteen centuries after it supposedly happened).

And second: "The Mythbusters" TV show did a segment about it. And tried to use real mirrors to ignite real little wooden sail boats on the water. And it just didnt work. Oh well. :(