South FL Landlord Requires New Tenants to be Vaccinated

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DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 2:39 am

Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Maybe this might help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations, and how they differ from other medication:
Quote:
The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs potentially controversial and could reduce willingness of some to use the vaccine. While some may see no ethical problem, for many a straight line can be drawn from the ending of a human life in an abortion to a vaccine or drug created using cells derived from the harvesting of the fetal tissue. Even if the cells have been propagated for years in the laboratory far removed from the abortion, that connection line remains. Thus, use of such cells for vaccine production raises problems of conscience for anyone who might be offered that vaccine and is aware of its lineage.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/an-ethics-assessment-of-covid-19-vaccine-programs/


I find the paragraph you quoted to be misleading in that it suggests those stem cells are still used in production. With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they are NOT.

I also understand that religious exemption is unique to an individual. But the Catholic Church, which essentially is the single largest right to life institution in the world, has been clear that they do not believe the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines to be morally compromised.

I am Catholic. We had this discussion with the broader extended family during one of our international zooms, and even our most conservative members got vaccinated.

None of that gets inside the head of any one person, of course, but it is worth asking if their position is based in an accurate application of faith to FACT, instead of faith to misinformation.

And then there are the unethical people selling faith and medical exemptions …

It may be "misleading", but it is an example of why some people have qualms about the vaccine, which was the reason I quoted it.


I know you will argue to death against what I'm about to say, but if you share a quote you know is inaccurate intending to use it as an illustration, you really should say that more clearly than you did. You know if this was a court of the law the imprecision would be ripped to pieces.

Quote:
Off Topic
Note: The following is from memory.
With regards to the Catholic church - This is not the "monolithic" entity you present it as - Unless the pontiff has proclaimed something "Ex cathedra", it is not a "compulsary" belief by the adherents to the church, nor part of church doctrine.

There is also the issue that there are many religious orders within the church, each having its own interpretations of various areas of the church's teachings (commonly, those of the "Society of Jesus" are referred to by the media on "social" issues, but their views are not necesarily representative of the church as a whole).


I think speaking for groups you don't belong to is always a perilous proposition.

I am well aware of how broad an umbrella the Catholic Church is, and that there are a variety of beliefs members hold, while only two are "required" in order to be a Catholic. Priests can vary a lot in the messages they prioritize. HOWEVER, church officials have been remarkably consistent in their messaging on the vaccines, and I would find it difficult to believe that there are any practicing Catholics that are unaware of both the majority position and the reasoning behind it. I'm surprisingly tapped in to the pro-life movement, I know some incredibly strict pro-lifers, and NONE feel all the vaccines are morally objectionable. The volume of people who can sincerely claim to need a religious exemption is really small.

Turning back to the landlord, I think he would know that he has to accept religious exceptions, if they are sincere. If he doesn't accommodate medical and religious exceptions, I don't see how his mandate could be sustained. Those kinds of exceptions are too ingrained in the American conscious for any position without them to be considered reasonable.


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Pepe
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17 Sep 2021, 3:26 am

Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It seems odd that the same people citing "Religious Exemption" for refusing the covid vaccines do not cite the same reason for not getting vaccinated against the flu, rubella, mumps, measles, polio, and whooping cough.  They also seem to have no qualms about taking aspirin, benadryl, insulin, plavix, statins, or vitamin supplements on a daily basis.

Maybe this might help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations, and how they differ from other medication:
Quote:
The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs potentially controversial and could reduce willingness of some to use the vaccine. While some may see no ethical problem, for many a straight line can be drawn from the ending of a human life in an abortion to a vaccine or drug created using cells derived from the harvesting of the fetal tissue. Even if the cells have been propagated for years in the laboratory far removed from the abortion, that connection line remains. Thus, use of such cells for vaccine production raises problems of conscience for anyone who might be offered that vaccine and is aware of its lineage.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/an-ethics-assessment-of-covid-19-vaccine-programs/


I find the paragraph you quoted to be misleading in that it suggests those stem cells are still used in production. With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they are NOT.

I also understand that religious exemption is unique to an individual. But the Catholic Church, which essentially is the single largest right to life institution in the world, has been clear that they do not believe the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines to be morally compromised.

I am Catholic. We had this discussion with the broader extended family during one of our international zooms, and even our most conservative members got vaccinated.

None of that gets inside the head of any one person, of course, but it is worth asking if their position is based in an accurate application of faith to FACT, instead of faith to misinformation.

And then there are the unethical people selling faith and medical exemptions …

It may be "misleading", but it is an example of why some people have qualms about the vaccine, which was the reason I quoted it.

I'm not saying their reasons are or are not valid (this is an individual matter for them, centered around their personal religious beliefs) - I was merely trying to explain why to some people the vaccines are not acceptable to them for religious reasons, and how they may differ from the "popping a pill" or other vaccinations (to which this vaccine was being equated in the post I replied to) in those people's minds.


I see.
But it could be a point of contention, originally using fetal stem cells.

Remember the discussion about using unethical Nazi medical research?
From memory, it was agreed not to use it, for ethical reasons.
I suspect in reality, having studied human psychology, it was but kept secret. 8)

However, it does weaken the argument against the abstinence of the vaccine. 8O



Last edited by Pepe on 17 Sep 2021, 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Brictoria
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17 Sep 2021, 4:03 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Maybe this might help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations, and how they differ from other medication:
Quote:
The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs potentially controversial and could reduce willingness of some to use the vaccine. While some may see no ethical problem, for many a straight line can be drawn from the ending of a human life in an abortion to a vaccine or drug created using cells derived from the harvesting of the fetal tissue. Even if the cells have been propagated for years in the laboratory far removed from the abortion, that connection line remains. Thus, use of such cells for vaccine production raises problems of conscience for anyone who might be offered that vaccine and is aware of its lineage.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/an-ethics-assessment-of-covid-19-vaccine-programs/


I find the paragraph you quoted to be misleading in that it suggests those stem cells are still used in production. With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they are NOT.

I also understand that religious exemption is unique to an individual. But the Catholic Church, which essentially is the single largest right to life institution in the world, has been clear that they do not believe the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines to be morally compromised.

I am Catholic. We had this discussion with the broader extended family during one of our international zooms, and even our most conservative members got vaccinated.

None of that gets inside the head of any one person, of course, but it is worth asking if their position is based in an accurate application of faith to FACT, instead of faith to misinformation.

And then there are the unethical people selling faith and medical exemptions …

It may be "misleading", but it is an example of why some people have qualms about the vaccine, which was the reason I quoted it.


I know you will argue to death against what I'm about to say, but if you share a quote you know is inaccurate intending to use it as an illustration, you really should say that more clearly than you did. You know if this was a court of the law the imprecision would be ripped to pieces.


I'm not sure how much clearer you expect it to be, given I was explaining the point of view of a set of people, and prefixed the quote with the words that it was to "help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations".

I believe I made it perfectly clear that I was merely providing the "point of view" of those people, and that the quote was expressly for that reason. Nowhere did I make any other assertions regarding the quote, so please don't accuse me of being "misleading" with the quote, or not "clearly stating" it was for illustrative purposes.

I was merely explaining a viewpoint, using material which reflected\explained the "reasons" that some people hold the views they do - To some, the involvent of those cells at any stage, including testing, can be enough for them to have a religious objection to it... Given the definition of "Production" can vary, with some reading it as "manufacture of final product", while others may read it as "all stages from research through to manufacture of final product", your interpretation may also not align with what the authors intended...

DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Off Topic
Note: The following is from memory.
With regards to the Catholic church - This is not the "monolithic" entity you present it as - Unless the pontiff has proclaimed something "Ex cathedra", it is not a "compulsary" belief by the adherents to the church, nor part of church doctrine.

There is also the issue that there are many religious orders within the church, each having its own interpretations of various areas of the church's teachings (commonly, those of the "Society of Jesus" are referred to by the media on "social" issues, but their views are not necesarily representative of the church as a whole).


I think speaking for groups you don't belong to is always a perilous proposition.


As is making assumptions about what groups a member does or does not belong to :roll:



Pepe
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17 Sep 2021, 4:15 am

Brictoria wrote:

I was merely explaining a viewpoint, using material which reflected\explained the "reasons" that some people hold the views they do - To some, the involvent of those cells at any stage, including testing, can be enough for them to have a religious objection to it... Given the definition of "Production" can vary, with some reading it as "manufacture of final product", while others may read it as "all stages from research through to manufacture of final product", your interpretation may also not align with what the authors intended...


As you can see in my previous post, this is a valid consideration, imo.



Brictoria
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17 Sep 2021, 4:45 am

Pepe wrote:
Brictoria wrote:

I was merely explaining a viewpoint, using material which reflected\explained the "reasons" that some people hold the views they do - To some, the involvent of those cells at any stage, including testing, can be enough for them to have a religious objection to it... Given the definition of "Production" can vary, with some reading it as "manufacture of final product", while others may read it as "all stages from research through to manufacture of final product", your interpretation may also not align with what the authors intended...


As you can see in my previous post, this is a valid consideration, imo.


Yep, that's the point I've been trying to make, while being accussed of "spreading misinformation", "being misleading", "trying to derail the thread', etc. simply for trying to point this out (as explained to me by some who hold those beliefs, in part using material sourced from them)...



DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 5:50 am

Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Maybe this might help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations, and how they differ from other medication:
Quote:
The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs potentially controversial and could reduce willingness of some to use the vaccine. While some may see no ethical problem, for many a straight line can be drawn from the ending of a human life in an abortion to a vaccine or drug created using cells derived from the harvesting of the fetal tissue. Even if the cells have been propagated for years in the laboratory far removed from the abortion, that connection line remains. Thus, use of such cells for vaccine production raises problems of conscience for anyone who might be offered that vaccine and is aware of its lineage.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/an-ethics-assessment-of-covid-19-vaccine-programs/


I find the paragraph you quoted to be misleading in that it suggests those stem cells are still used in production. With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, they are NOT.

I also understand that religious exemption is unique to an individual. But the Catholic Church, which essentially is the single largest right to life institution in the world, has been clear that they do not believe the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines to be morally compromised.

I am Catholic. We had this discussion with the broader extended family during one of our international zooms, and even our most conservative members got vaccinated.

None of that gets inside the head of any one person, of course, but it is worth asking if their position is based in an accurate application of faith to FACT, instead of faith to misinformation.

And then there are the unethical people selling faith and medical exemptions …

It may be "misleading", but it is an example of why some people have qualms about the vaccine, which was the reason I quoted it.


I know you will argue to death against what I'm about to say, but if you share a quote you know is inaccurate intending to use it as an illustration, you really should say that more clearly than you did. You know if this was a court of the law the imprecision would be ripped to pieces.


I'm not sure how much clearer you expect it to be, given I was explaining the point of view of a set of people, and prefixed the quote with the words that it was to "help you understand the point of view of many of these people regarding the covid vaccinations".

I believe I made it perfectly clear that I was merely providing the "point of view" of those people, and that the quote was expressly for that reason. Nowhere did I make any other assertions regarding the quote, so please don't accuse me of being "misleading" with the quote, or not "clearly stating" it was for illustrative purposes.

I was merely explaining a viewpoint, using material which reflected\explained the "reasons" that some people hold the views they do - To some, the involvent of those cells at any stage, including testing, can be enough for them to have a religious objection to it... Given the definition of "Production" can vary, with some reading it as "manufacture of final product", while others may read it as "all stages from research through to manufacture of final product", your interpretation may also not align with what the authors intended...

DW_a_mom wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Off Topic
Note: The following is from memory.
With regards to the Catholic church - This is not the "monolithic" entity you present it as - Unless the pontiff has proclaimed something "Ex cathedra", it is not a "compulsary" belief by the adherents to the church, nor part of church doctrine.

There is also the issue that there are many religious orders within the church, each having its own interpretations of various areas of the church's teachings (commonly, those of the "Society of Jesus" are referred to by the media on "social" issues, but their views are not necesarily representative of the church as a whole).


I think speaking for groups you don't belong to is always a perilous proposition.


As is making assumptions about what groups a member does or does not belong to :roll:


I would have worded my introduction to include something like “while I know the quote contains misleading information, it seems to represent what a lot of people think.”

I was right about you fighting me on my comment, and I still don’t buy your logic.

In industry the term production has a specific meaning. Testing and research are not production. It matters in the tax code, it matters under accounting standards. That some people misuse the terminology does not change its meaning.

I’m not trying to make you mad, annoy you, or even change your mind. I pointed this detail out because I think you could be sharper than you are, if that makes any sense. You are very quick to jump into being defensive, and you stay locked into your approach, instead of considering if I could have a point. Next time, just consider the input. I got really good at legal writing in my job because someone used to nit pick everything. Not that my opinions on clarity and precision are the end all or anything like that; but I can write a response letter that will cleanly win a client’s case.

I should have left the punchy sentence about groups one does not belong to off my post. The way you presented the paragraph read to me as you trying to summarize what you had learned as an interested outsider. My bad. I should not have assumed.


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Pepe
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17 Sep 2021, 7:31 am

Brictoria wrote:

Quote:
AstraZeneca did use the HEK 293 cell line to manufacture its vaccine (and Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna in the design of their vaccines). These cells originate from a fetus which was aborted in the Netherlands in 1973.

Source: https://factcheckni.org/articles/covid-19-vaccines-and-aborted-fetuses/


Well, If I understand the situation correctly, none of the current vaccines uses fetal cells, but all the vaccines benefitted from research using fetal cells.

As with my reference to unethical Nazi medical experimentation, the development of covid vaccines could be ethically tainted also, in the minds of some, because of the initial use of an aborted foetus.
While I personally don't have a problem here, it wouldn't surprise me that some might.

So far, I haven't found any suggestion of you, or what you posted, being misleading.

Since I find this level of investigation mentally taxing, perhaps someone else can pinpoint the exact section in question.

BTW, Damn you for sucking me into this demanding mental exercise. :mrgreen:

Pepe out. 8)



Pepe
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17 Sep 2021, 7:40 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I would have worded my introduction to include something like “while I know the quote contains misleading information, it seems to represent what a lot of people think.”


You do realise the irony here?
If memory serves me correctly, didn't you chastise Britoria for being patronising?

As I said, I prefer to keep our social intercourse brief.
Pepe out. 8)



DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 8:51 am

Pepe wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I would have worded my introduction to include something like “while I know the quote contains misleading information, it seems to represent what a lot of people think.”


You do realise the irony here?
If memory serves me correctly, didn't you chastise Britoria for being patronising?

As I said, I prefer to keep our social intercourse brief.
Pepe out. 8)


I don’t recall doing that. I may, however, have called his posting style pedantic. Regardless, he is more than capable of handling his own duels. I wouldn’t challenge him if I felt any chance he wasn’t.

The quote he posted claims stem cells are used in the production of the vaccines. No stem cells are used in the production of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. His answer explained his context, and I get that, but discussion in this thread indicates the context wasn’t entirely clear to everyone.


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