Possible indictment over Russian collusion

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DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 4:07 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


It doesn’t have to touch Trump to be real and substantive. How anyone can believe REAL EVIDENCE that a foreign power has been trying to influence our elections was only a smoke screen is beyond me. You should care about this. We all should.


I care more about the political system that made it possible for a right-wing demagogue to rise to power. There is still zero evidence that Russia had any real effect on our election. Zero! It's all just conjecture.


Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.

We learned so much in the investigation that frightened the %€#+*> out of me and should frighten you. You were influenced whether you recognized it or not.

The preference Russia had on who should win was a distant second to the rest.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 17 Sep 2021, 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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17 Sep 2021, 4:10 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.
It is hard for some people to see the evidence for the problem when they are part of it.


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VegetableMan
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17 Sep 2021, 4:15 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


It doesn’t have to touch Trump to be real and substantive. How anyone can believe REAL EVIDENCE that a foreign power has been trying to influence our elections was only a smoke screen is beyond me. You should care about this. We all should.


I care more about the political system that made it possible for a right-wing demagogue to rise to power. There is still zero evidence that Russia had any real effect on our election. Zero! It's all just conjecture.


Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.


Russia didn't do that, we were divided long before the 2016 election.

Seriously, is there anybody left in this country who has "faith in our political system?" When people say Russia subverted our Democracy, I have to laugh. Our Democracy was subverted decades ago by the ruling elite.

Blaming Russia for our problems is absurd.


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DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 4:25 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


It doesn’t have to touch Trump to be real and substantive. How anyone can believe REAL EVIDENCE that a foreign power has been trying to influence our elections was only a smoke screen is beyond me. You should care about this. We all should.


I care more about the political system that made it possible for a right-wing demagogue to rise to power. There is still zero evidence that Russia had any real effect on our election. Zero! It's all just conjecture.


Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.


Russia didn't do that, we were divided long before the 2016 election.

Seriously, is there anybody left in this country who has "faith in our political system?" When people say Russia subverted our Democracy, I have to laugh. Our Democracy was subverted decades ago by the ruling elite.

Blaming Russia for our problems is absurd.


Russia knew exactly where to hammer the chisel and turned a crack into what may prove to be an irreparable gulf. Watergate looks like child’s play compared to where we are now. You don’t seem to understand just how much more threatened we are by our own divisions than we have been at any other time in my decades of adult life.


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VegetableMan
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17 Sep 2021, 4:32 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


It doesn’t have to touch Trump to be real and substantive. How anyone can believe REAL EVIDENCE that a foreign power has been trying to influence our elections was only a smoke screen is beyond me. You should care about this. We all should.


I care more about the political system that made it possible for a right-wing demagogue to rise to power. There is still zero evidence that Russia had any real effect on our election. Zero! It's all just conjecture.


Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.


Russia didn't do that, we were divided long before the 2016 election.

Seriously, is there anybody left in this country who has "faith in our political system?" When people say Russia subverted our Democracy, I have to laugh. Our Democracy was subverted decades ago by the ruling elite.

Blaming Russia for our problems is absurd.


Russia knew exactly where to hammer the chisel and turned a crack into what may prove to be an irreparable gulf. Watergate looks like child’s play compared to where we are now. You don’t seem to understand just how much more threatened we are by our own divisions than we have been at any other time in my decades of adult life.


How exactly are those divisions Russia"s fault? I'm still trying to figure that out.

And if Russia subverted our election with a few memes on social media, shouldn't we be focusing on why Americans are so ignorant and unwilling to research political topics, rather than blame a foreign country? That seems more logical to me.


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DW_a_mom
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17 Sep 2021, 5:00 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:

Russia knew exactly where to hammer the chisel and turned a crack into what may prove to be an irreparable gulf. Watergate looks like child’s play compared to where we are now. You don’t seem to understand just how much more threatened we are by our own divisions than we have been at any other time in my decades of adult life.


How exactly are those divisions Russia"s fault? I'm still trying to figure that out.

And if Russia subverted our election with a few memes on social media, shouldn't we be focusing on why Americans are so ignorant and unwilling to research political topics, rather than blame a foreign country? That seems more logical to me.


Russia didn't create the crack, but it definitely has been hammering a chisel into the crack.

I would not say Americans are unwilling to research political topics. I would say that the average American has far more immediate concerns to deal with, not enough extra time, and little ability to research political topics. You are not going to be able to change the time and worry issues no matter how hard you try, so I honestly believe the best you can do is get people to understand that they are being manipulated and that foreign interests are often involved. Once people understand that NO memes are "on point" no matter how much their emotions feel one is, and that ALL memes are manipulative in one way or other, they stop sharing them. That one action can help a lot, but people won't prioritize that action if they don't see the harm. One way to avoid seeing the harm is to downplay the role of Russian attempts to divide us. One way of downplaying the role is to believe charges on Russian interference were nothing but a smoke screen. Are you starting to see yet why I feel it is important to understand the Russian inference charges were real? Its all connected.


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TenMinutes
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17 Sep 2021, 5:02 pm

Summary of this case:

Evidence of Trump collusion with Russia was compiled as "opposition research" for the benefit of the Clinton campaign, and had the FBI known that (some would say they did, and were politically motivated to overlook the source) they would have checked the worthiness of the source before acting on the "intel".

Summary of "Russian interference":

A Russian company spent $100K on social media campaigns, only about half of it before the 2016 election, and only some of it related to the election, to draw people to follow certain pages or visit certain websites. The Mueller report itself speculates that the objective was ad revenue.

According to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, testifying before congress, the Russians spent $4700 (forty seven hundred US dollars) advertising across google properties.

For context, the two political campaigns spent a total of about $2B on the election, and free air time amounted to perhaps $6B. If the Russians interfered with $100K, someone should hire them. But for what it's worth, their ads were barely English literate, let alone culturally literate. Samples are googleable.

When this context is explained, goal posts are moved to "but they targeted their ads particularly well"...except that they targeted primarily (no pun intended) states that did not determine the election.

Michael Sussmann's law firm, Perkins Coie, represents much of congress, the Democratic National Convention, and the Clintons. And the firm that prepared much of the info about Russian collusion that was presented to congress, New Knowledge, was ejected from Facebook for using the same Russian tactics and the same budget as the Russians to influence an Alabama senate election. When a Russian ad firm does it it sets off two years of hysteria, but when American spook corporations do it, NYT calls it an experiment and describes it as "too small to have a significant effect on the race", and the only consequence is Facebook jail.

Secret Experiment in Alabama Senate Race Imitated Russian Tactics

For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent



Last edited by TenMinutes on 17 Sep 2021, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TenMinutes
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17 Sep 2021, 5:05 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
the average American has far more immediate concerns to deal with, not enough extra time, and little ability to research political topics. You are not going to be able to change the time and worry issues no matter how hard you try


Some of us saw this happening in real time, understood full well what it meant, objected to it, and were treated like petulant children and called conspiracy nuts. And still are.



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17 Sep 2021, 5:37 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


Keep in mind, you are talking to a partisan progressive. 8)



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17 Sep 2021, 5:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.
It is hard for some people to see the evidence for the problem when they are part of it.



Some people see things in black & white terms.
I am always wary when I see this happen.



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17 Sep 2021, 5:42 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We need to get to the bottom of the entire Russia Hoax but it probably leads somewhere that the prosecutors cannot go.


There have been dozens of indictments related to Russian interference in our elections yet you still call it a hoax?


None of the indictments had anything to do with collusion between Trump and Russia. It still remains an evidence-free conspiracy theory.

The whole thing was a massive smoke screen to deflect attention away from the real reasons Trump was elected.


It doesn’t have to touch Trump to be real and substantive. How anyone can believe REAL EVIDENCE that a foreign power has been trying to influence our elections was only a smoke screen is beyond me. You should care about this. We all should.


I care more about the political system that made it possible for a right-wing demagogue to rise to power. There is still zero evidence that Russia had any real effect on our election. Zero! It's all just conjecture.


Russia successfully did exactly what it set out to do: get us fighting each other and destroy faith in our political system. The evidence is all around you.


Russia didn't do that, we were divided long before the 2016 election.

Seriously, is there anybody left in this country who has "faith in our political system?" When people say Russia subverted our Democracy, I have to laugh. Our Democracy was subverted decades ago by the ruling elite.

Blaming Russia for our problems is absurd.


Politics has always been a dirty game.



Pepe
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17 Sep 2021, 5:45 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
How exactly are those divisions Russia"s fault? I'm still trying to figure that out.

And if Russia subverted our election with a few memes on social media, shouldn't we be focusing on why Americans are so ignorant and unwilling to research political topics, rather than blame a foreign country? That seems more logical to me.


Personally speaking, I blame the woke kulture for the social division in America.
New values clashing with the old.



DW_a_mom
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18 Sep 2021, 6:47 pm

My summary:

Apparently it all goes back to an alleged connection between Trump’s campaign and a Russian bank. While the connection exists, it seems, in fact, to have been entirely coincidental and inconsequential, but it did gain life among conspiracy theorists (my own news sources never ran with it). This alleged connection did not warrant investigation by the Mueller committee and had nothing to do with any of the committee’s indictments.

Before the first story broke on the subject, back in fall of 2016, the indicted lawyer met with the FBI on the subject and obscured who his client was. This is the lie for which he was indicted. The investigation that indicted him was the one set up by Barr to investigate the investigators.

Contingent points:

The Clinton campaign did eventually run with the allegation, trying to pretend they finally had a smoking gun. It wasn’t.

The actual Russian interference in our elections found by the Mueller investigation was completely separate from this allegation.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 18 Sep 2021, 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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18 Sep 2021, 7:00 pm

Pepe wrote:
Keep in mind, you are talking to a partisan progressive. 8)


For you to claim you are ignoring me but then take intentional swipes at me in the posts you make that you hope I am ignoring is dishonest. It’s like the neighborhood gossip claiming she isn’t a gossip.

The fact that I see things differently than you does nothing make me partisan. I do not read far left sources, I never believe or share memes or hit pieces, and I disclaim it when I share something I feel can be taken as partisan. I readily admit to being progressive, at least in comparison to most of you, but I don’t align solidly with any political party, believe it or not. I see myself first as a pragmatic, but one that has enough of a bleeding heart to default to compassion when there is any doubt. I accept that things are so divisive that most conservatives see me as more liberal than I am, but I fight hard against having that go both ways.


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18 Sep 2021, 9:03 pm

TenMinutes wrote:
For the record, I voted against Trump in both elections. What really bothers me is we don't have a second-term President Sanders, because MSNBC, CNN, NYT and Wapo are the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. Trump is what happens when the entire establishment elite pulls out all the stops to elect a Clinton, AND SCREW IT UP.

Oh, and there's this...

They Always Wanted Trump - TLDR Clinton wanted Trump as her opponent


Finally, someone who gets it.


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Pepe
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18 Sep 2021, 9:26 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Keep in mind, you are talking to a partisan progressive. 8)


For you to claim you are ignoring me but then take intentional swipes at me in the posts you make that you hope I am ignoring is dishonest. It’s like the neighborhood gossip claiming she isn’t a gossip.


I ignore the vast bulk of your posts.
This applies to others also.
Please don't consider yourself special here. :mrgreen:
We simply have a personality conflict and I see little profit in clashing with you.

Also, as I have mentioned, in regard to some others also, I will respond *indirectly* to some who are on my no-go list when I read someone else's reply to a person on that list.

Secondly, I will give myself the option to review a post that has been directly, errr, directed at me.
No guarantee I will respond, however.
Skunks prerogative. 8)

And regarding your accusation that I am being dishonest?
Pff. :roll:
You simply didn't understand the qualification I laid out. 8)

As The Oracle of Truth, it is my obligation to observe.
It is my considered *opinion* that you have a noticeable left-with bias, as I have a conservative bias.

The difference is, the Truth trumps any political affinity I may have, hence my political nomenclature of being a moderate conservative centrist *Independent*.