Cultural Differences - Liberal vs Conservative

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DW_a_mom
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09 Oct 2021, 3:51 am

auntblabby wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it needs to be said that there is not a GD thing wrong with laziness. so there. i'm lazy (but i prefer the term "energy conservation"), and anybody that doesn't like it can go suck a big rotten egg.


He he, I do have to agree with you.

Lazy is great as long as it isn't at the expense of others. Always be aware of where the line is, when your laziness makes more work and frustration for someone else.

i waited decades and scrimped and saved and had a lucky break here and there, to be able to be lazy. i hadda work my donkey off before then. i hated the hell outta that. i'm not costin' anybody anything other than them no longer being able to browbeat me on the grindstone. but it must be said that i am in favor of truly lazy other folks to bypass the work hell i had to go through, i believe in a UBI that would keep folks like me poor but alive and sheltered and nominally fed. i would be willing to pay taxes for that and NOT for our obscenely bloated MIC supporting wealthy sociopaths.


I apologize for making the last sentence sound like it was directed to you. I meant it as a general concept, but it isn't really reading that way, is it? Sorry.


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auntblabby
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09 Oct 2021, 4:01 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
it needs to be said that there is not a GD thing wrong with laziness. so there. i'm lazy (but i prefer the term "energy conservation"), and anybody that doesn't like it can go suck a big rotten egg.


He he, I do have to agree with you.

Lazy is great as long as it isn't at the expense of others. Always be aware of where the line is, when your laziness makes more work and frustration for someone else.

i waited decades and scrimped and saved and had a lucky break here and there, to be able to be lazy. i hadda work my donkey off before then. i hated the hell outta that. i'm not costin' anybody anything other than them no longer being able to browbeat me on the grindstone. but it must be said that i am in favor of truly lazy other folks to bypass the work hell i had to go through, i believe in a UBI that would keep folks like me poor but alive and sheltered and nominally fed. i would be willing to pay taxes for that and NOT for our obscenely bloated MIC supporting wealthy sociopaths.


I apologize for making the last sentence sound like it was directed to you. I meant it as a general concept, but it isn't really reading that way, is it? Sorry.

no ma'am, no offense perceived or taken. there is nothing wrong with your statement up there :flower:



thinkinginpictures
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10 Oct 2021, 1:58 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I do believe we have a duty to make sure those people are able to live and find a way to contribute regardless of what their own struggle is.


I'm also against conscription or any other forced labor where you get a prison sentence for not working.

It's my ideology whether you like it or not, that everyone should be entitled to Liberty and the Right To Say No to anything that has to do with being actively involved in any activity whatsoever.

So long as my taxes can be paid automatically without moving any parts of my body, I'm OK with taxation.

But Conscription and Work-Duty is Forced Labor. Forced Labor is always morally wrong when it happens to innocent people.

And then you and others can go talk about "pushing a lot of buttons". I'm in my firm belief that I hold the Right Opinions in this regard, and I always had and and always will.



DW_a_mom
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10 Oct 2021, 6:13 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I do believe we have a duty to make sure those people are able to live and find a way to contribute regardless of what their own struggle is.


I'm also against conscription or any other forced labor where you get a prison sentence for not working.

It's my ideology whether you like it or not, that everyone should be entitled to Liberty and the Right To Say No to anything that has to do with being actively involved in any activity whatsoever.

So long as my taxes can be paid automatically without moving any parts of my body, I'm OK with taxation.

But Conscription and Work-Duty is Forced Labor. Forced Labor is always morally wrong when it happens to innocent people.

And then you and others can go talk about "pushing a lot of buttons". I'm in my firm belief that I hold the Right Opinions in this regard, and I always had and and always will.


A question. What happens if everyone, the entire human population, elects to never work? Where will the food and shelter come from?

No one should force anyone to do anything, but that also means you cannot force other people to do the labor it requires to supply you with the things you need.

I am not a "work or you get nothing" person. I believe in human dignity. But you have to recognize where your need for absolute freedom meets its logical end. You cannot be "in the right" until you see at least see that much. Society doesn't function if all of us are only concerned with our own absolute freedom. You can't "win" the debate if you can't leave any room for that basic and essential reality.


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thinkinginpictures
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10 Oct 2021, 7:32 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
A question. What happens if everyone, the entire human population, elects to never work? Where will the food and shelter come from?


If everybody stopped working, society would collapse. But then everybody will be in need, and some would start working or they would starve to death. In other words: Nature provides its own solutions.

Another thing is, if everyone decides not to work, it wouldn't matter whether we have UBI or not. There's a thing called "Strike". It happens in every nation around the world all the time.

UBI does not cause the scenario of "Nobody-will-work". If it happens, if that scenario comes true - it will happen with UBI or not, it doesn't matter whether or not society have UBI.

Besides, I never take these "if-everyone-did-this"-scenarios seriously. We're all different, we're not all alike. Nobody will do the same thing. Some would work, some wouldn't. Others will contribute to society in another way.

DW_a_mom wrote:
No one should force anyone to do anything, but that also means you cannot force other people to do the labor it requires to supply you with the things you need.


That's the idea behind UBI: It is a right EVERY CITIZEN is entitled to, if they cannot earn their own money - or simply decide not to earn their own money. Nobody will be questioning their reasons for receiving UBI.

When you start earning your own money, the UBI will decrease but only at a rate so you still have incentive to earn money.



DW_a_mom
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10 Oct 2021, 7:40 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
When you start earning your own money, the UBI will decrease but only at a rate so you still have incentive to earn money.


If you have UBI, everyone should get it, period. No decrease if you earn money. Otherwise it’s welfare, not UBI.

I realize that’s a little circular, as the earners will be paying the taxes that fund the UBI, but conceptually it’s the way it has to work.


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thinkinginpictures
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10 Oct 2021, 7:48 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
When you start earning your own money, the UBI will decrease but only at a rate so you still have incentive to earn money.


If you have UBI, everyone should get it, period. No decrease if you earn money. Otherwise it’s welfare, not UBI.

I realize that’s a little circular, as the earners will be paying the taxes that fund the UBI, but conceptually it’s the way it has to work.


No, the 'Unconditional' in Unconditional Basic Income only refers to no requirements of giving something in return for the UBI - ie. work, education or any other "favors" for the state. It is also given to any citizen ie. above 18 years old, unlike pensions requiring old age or disability benefits requiring you to be sick/disabled.

Besides, UBI can be thought of as welfare itself. It's just another way of having welfare benefits.

There are many ways UBI can work. It can work as a negative tax or as a levelled income (my suggestion), or as a fixed sum of money given to everyone (similar to Negative Tax).