16 Oct 2021, 2:30 am
auntblabby wrote:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/southlake-texas-holocaust-books-schools-rcna2965
any thinking person knew that this was coming. as twain said, "history may not exactly repeat itself, but it surely rhymes."
evil people reincarnate and repeat their mistakes. the banality of evil is generational. the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons to the third generation, but i think it is almost forever in human terms.
any thinking person knew that this was coming. as twain said, "history may not exactly repeat itself, but it surely rhymes."
evil people reincarnate and repeat their mistakes. the banality of evil is generational. the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons to the third generation, but i think it is almost forever in human terms.
"Evil" or the potential of evil is part of the human psyche.
Simples.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
16 Oct 2021, 4:44 am
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
cyberdad wrote:
How do you get an opposing view of the holocaust? a better question to ask is why create an opposing view?.
Other less emotional topics allow "revision" when more information comes to hand.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Answer: If republican propaganda has worked in preventing white kids from having to learn about slavery, then why learn about racism altogether. Learning about racism creates uncomfortable questions about why in 2021 their neighborhood is segregated or why their school is segregated.
The problem seems to be the perversion of "The Critical Race Theory" to instil guilt on some children.
(I experienced persecution for having German ancestry when I was 4/5, hence my aversion.)
There is hard evidence of this happening in skools.
Teachers who do this should be sacked, imo.
cyberdad wrote:
My best guess is that this is an attempt to re-write WWII history in the context of competing empires in order to diminish the repurcussions of Nazi racism. They are already doing this with the civil war which has long been pitched as a battle over state sovereignty rather than a war to keep slavery.
Rather than make grand statements, I would rather hear what they mean by "An opposing view on the Holocaust".
I think it is far too soon to bring out the virtue-signalling flag.
That can happen later if the concept presented is ludicrous through the magnifying glass of objective critical thinking.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Harvard historian William Goldhagen and others have eloquently argued that critical thinking about the causes of the holocaust have been prevented from being taught in schools because the power of group think that created the conditions for the Nazi holocaust are capable (and have been repeated) in other situations. Psychologists have known this for years.
But generally, no critical thinking on the subject of The Holocaust is allowed.
People are usually howled down and called "Holocaust Deniers".
"Critical Thinking" of "The Holocaust" is an oxymoron.
cyberdad wrote:
Or to put it another way, if you erase history you are doomed to repeat it.
I suggest you keep an eye on Nazi China.
But the only opposing view is coming from completely ahistorical sources rooted in hate and bigotry.
I'm even more German in my ancestry, and all I can say is, yes, it's completely unfair that kids of German background have been made to feel guilty because of the holocaust. But rather than presenting "opposing viewpoints" to genocide, more should be done to make it clear that most Germans weren't guilty of the Holocaust, and Americans and Australians of German extraction weren't guilty at all.
16 Oct 2021, 9:10 am
16 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
cyberdad wrote:
How do you get an opposing view of the holocaust? a better question to ask is why create an opposing view?.
Other less emotional topics allow "revision" when more information comes to hand.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Answer: If republican propaganda has worked in preventing white kids from having to learn about slavery, then why learn about racism altogether. Learning about racism creates uncomfortable questions about why in 2021 their neighborhood is segregated or why their school is segregated.
The problem seems to be the perversion of "The Critical Race Theory" to instil guilt on some children.
(I experienced persecution for having German ancestry when I was 4/5, hence my aversion.)
There is hard evidence of this happening in skools.
Teachers who do this should be sacked, imo.
cyberdad wrote:
My best guess is that this is an attempt to re-write WWII history in the context of competing empires in order to diminish the repurcussions of Nazi racism. They are already doing this with the civil war which has long been pitched as a battle over state sovereignty rather than a war to keep slavery.
Rather than make grand statements, I would rather hear what they mean by "An opposing view on the Holocaust".
I think it is far too soon to bring out the virtue-signalling flag.
That can happen later if the concept presented is ludicrous through the magnifying glass of objective critical thinking.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Harvard historian William Goldhagen and others have eloquently argued that critical thinking about the causes of the holocaust have been prevented from being taught in schools because the power of group think that created the conditions for the Nazi holocaust are capable (and have been repeated) in other situations. Psychologists have known this for years.
But generally, no critical thinking on the subject of The Holocaust is allowed.
People are usually howled down and called "Holocaust Deniers".
"Critical Thinking" of "The Holocaust" is an oxymoron.
cyberdad wrote:
Or to put it another way, if you erase history you are doomed to repeat it.
I suggest you keep an eye on Nazi China.
But the only opposing view is coming from completely ahistorical sources rooted in hate and bigotry.
I'm even more German in my ancestry, and all I can say is, yes, it's completely unfair that kids of German background have been made to feel guilty because of the holocaust. But rather than presenting "opposing viewpoints" to genocide, more should be done to make it clear that most Germans weren't guilty of the Holocaust, and Americans and Australians of German extraction weren't guilty at all.
A bit late for me.
I am not 4/5 any longer.
But my point is, people who jump into virtue-signalling without understanding the elements involved lack intellectual integrity.
They are "book burners" who have no tolerance for free discussion. (How ironic).
They disrespect scientific methodology.
They engage in emotionalism.
An intelligent, objective, rational and informed individual would assess what is presented and call out foolishness if they find it.
Personally, I resent ill-informed people forbidding my critical thinking process.
The irony that these emotionalistic groupthinkers are trying to suppress a valid assessment process is staggering.
Would you trust a person who disregards the facts and simply embraces their "feelings"?
Are you unaware of the politics that are involved in "shepherding" public opinion?
I believe that 6 million Jews (13 million people) died because of Nazi leader atrocities.
But I have a major problem with the denial of freedom of thought.
So what do they mean when they say "an alternative opinion"?
You don't know, do you?
Does anyone here?
I don't think so Tim.
16 Oct 2021, 3:09 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no doubt the Holocaust happened.
There is much first-hand, photographic, filmed, etc evidence. It would be impossible to “doctor” this evidence. It’s overwhelming.
So what if it turns out that “less than” 12 million (Jews, Gypsies, “mental defectives,” other ethnic and religious groups) or so were killed in the Holocaust? You often hear claims that the death toll was exaggerated. Perhaps, this is part of the “opposing view”?
Even if it’s less than half of the 12 million, the Holocaust was unspeakably horrible. But it probably wasn’t. Actually, maybe more were killed.
There is much first-hand, photographic, filmed, etc evidence. It would be impossible to “doctor” this evidence. It’s overwhelming.
So what if it turns out that “less than” 12 million (Jews, Gypsies, “mental defectives,” other ethnic and religious groups) or so were killed in the Holocaust? You often hear claims that the death toll was exaggerated. Perhaps, this is part of the “opposing view”?
Even if it’s less than half of the 12 million, the Holocaust was unspeakably horrible. But it probably wasn’t. Actually, maybe more were killed.
Do you know what they mean by "an alternate opinion"?
The first thing a person with a scientific mindset would do is define what they mean by that.
How can people not see this?
<exasperation> 
The people who wish to present this differing opinion may be full of horse*hit, but please, don't do my thinking for me.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
16 Oct 2021, 7:43 pm
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
cyberdad wrote:
How do you get an opposing view of the holocaust? a better question to ask is why create an opposing view?.
Other less emotional topics allow "revision" when more information comes to hand.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Answer: If republican propaganda has worked in preventing white kids from having to learn about slavery, then why learn about racism altogether. Learning about racism creates uncomfortable questions about why in 2021 their neighborhood is segregated or why their school is segregated.
The problem seems to be the perversion of "The Critical Race Theory" to instil guilt on some children.
(I experienced persecution for having German ancestry when I was 4/5, hence my aversion.)
There is hard evidence of this happening in skools.
Teachers who do this should be sacked, imo.
cyberdad wrote:
My best guess is that this is an attempt to re-write WWII history in the context of competing empires in order to diminish the repurcussions of Nazi racism. They are already doing this with the civil war which has long been pitched as a battle over state sovereignty rather than a war to keep slavery.
Rather than make grand statements, I would rather hear what they mean by "An opposing view on the Holocaust".
I think it is far too soon to bring out the virtue-signalling flag.
That can happen later if the concept presented is ludicrous through the magnifying glass of objective critical thinking.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happened.
I am critical of those who reject critical thinking on the subject.
cyberdad wrote:
Harvard historian William Goldhagen and others have eloquently argued that critical thinking about the causes of the holocaust have been prevented from being taught in schools because the power of group think that created the conditions for the Nazi holocaust are capable (and have been repeated) in other situations. Psychologists have known this for years.
But generally, no critical thinking on the subject of The Holocaust is allowed.
People are usually howled down and called "Holocaust Deniers".
"Critical Thinking" of "The Holocaust" is an oxymoron.
cyberdad wrote:
Or to put it another way, if you erase history you are doomed to repeat it.
I suggest you keep an eye on Nazi China.
But the only opposing view is coming from completely ahistorical sources rooted in hate and bigotry.
I'm even more German in my ancestry, and all I can say is, yes, it's completely unfair that kids of German background have been made to feel guilty because of the holocaust. But rather than presenting "opposing viewpoints" to genocide, more should be done to make it clear that most Germans weren't guilty of the Holocaust, and Americans and Australians of German extraction weren't guilty at all.
A bit late for me.
I am not 4/5 any longer.
But my point is, people who jump into virtue-signalling without understanding the elements involved lack intellectual integrity.
They are "book burners" who have no tolerance for free discussion. (How ironic).
They disrespect scientific methodology.
They engage in emotionalism.
An intelligent, objective, rational and informed individual would assess what is presented and call out foolishness if they find it.
Personally, I resent ill-informed people forbidding my critical thinking process.
The irony that these emotionalistic groupthinkers are trying to suppress a valid assessment process is staggering.
Would you trust a person who disregards the facts and simply embraces their "feelings"?
Are you unaware of the politics that are involved in "shepherding" public opinion?
I believe that 6 million Jews (13 million people) died because of Nazi leader atrocities.
But I have a major problem with the denial of freedom of thought.
So what do they mean when they say "an alternative opinion"?
You don't know, do you?
Does anyone here?
I don't think so Tim.
I think you're referring to those people who cast a blanket blame on all people of German background. Well, they're just as bigoted, and should be called out for said bigotry.
For the record, back when I was in high school, a couple of more popular kids who were of the Judaic faith picked on me because of where my people came from. I don't blame the whole Jewish people for the intolerance of those two a$$holes, nor do I accuse the study of the Holocaust for it either.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
16 Oct 2021, 7:44 pm
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no doubt the Holocaust happened.
There is much first-hand, photographic, filmed, etc evidence. It would be impossible to “doctor” this evidence. It’s overwhelming.
So what if it turns out that “less than” 12 million (Jews, Gypsies, “mental defectives,” other ethnic and religious groups) or so were killed in the Holocaust? You often hear claims that the death toll was exaggerated. Perhaps, this is part of the “opposing view”?
Even if it’s less than half of the 12 million, the Holocaust was unspeakably horrible. But it probably wasn’t. Actually, maybe more were killed.
There is much first-hand, photographic, filmed, etc evidence. It would be impossible to “doctor” this evidence. It’s overwhelming.
So what if it turns out that “less than” 12 million (Jews, Gypsies, “mental defectives,” other ethnic and religious groups) or so were killed in the Holocaust? You often hear claims that the death toll was exaggerated. Perhaps, this is part of the “opposing view”?
Even if it’s less than half of the 12 million, the Holocaust was unspeakably horrible. But it probably wasn’t. Actually, maybe more were killed.
Do you know what they mean by "an alternate opinion"?
The first thing a person with a scientific mindset would do is define what they mean by that.
How can people not see this?
<exasperation> The people who wish to present this differing opinion may be full of horse*hit, but please, don't do my thinking for me.
Then what is an "alternate" opinion about the Holocaust, if not Holocaust denial?
As far as not letting others do your thinking for you: Holocaust denial isn't about free thought, it's about fabricated history, which I suspect most of them know isn't true. They just promote such ahistorical crap to hurt other people; in this case, Jewish people.
16 Oct 2021, 11:47 pm
16 Oct 2021, 11:59 pm
17 Oct 2021, 1:51 am
17 Oct 2021, 1:55 am
17 Oct 2021, 2:43 am
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
Yes there is some irony there. But the question posed is what alternative narratives are there to explain the holocaust?
I have read where the cause of many of the deaths in the concentration camps was due to disease, as an example of what people don't want to hear.
Another observation was the food supply shortage causing deaths, as a result of allied bombing and simply the effects of war.
People don't want to hear that either, so it seems.
Also, doing simple maths suggests the story is more complicated than stated.
As I said, critical thinking is unwanted on this emotionally sensitive topic.
Understanding human psychology creates the formation of questions that most want to howl down.
I remember trying to approach this topic about 7 years ago, on WP.
The lack of sophistication I encountered at that time was frightening.
I wasn't expecting that on an autistic website.
I know better these days.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,790
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
17 Oct 2021, 2:48 am
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
Yes there is some irony there. But the question posed is what alternative narratives are there to explain the holocaust?
I have read where the cause of many of the deaths in the concentration camps was due to disease, as an example of what people don't want to hear.
Another observation was the food supply shortage causing deaths, as a result of allied bombing and simply the effects of war.
People don't want to hear that either, so it seems.
Also, doing simple maths suggests the story is more complicated than stated.
As I said, critical thinking is unwanted on this emotionally sensitive topic.
Understanding human psychology creates the formation of questions that most want to howl down.
I remember trying to approach this topic about 7 years ago, on WP.
The lack of sophistication I encountered at that time was frightening.
I wasn't expecting that on an autistic website.
I know better these days.
Yes, I've read and heard those very same things about disease and lack of food having been the cause of many deaths. That said, none of that would have happened had those people not been incarcerated in those camps in the first place.
17 Oct 2021, 2:49 am
naturalplastic wrote:
This person proposing this doesnt state what the phrase "alternate opinions" means.
Do they mean "the opinion" that the Holocaust didnt happen?
Or the opinon that it did happen, but that it was ok?
Either thing would be outrageous.
Do they mean "the opinion" that the Holocaust didnt happen?
Or the opinon that it did happen, but that it was ok?
Either thing would be outrageous.
The first step is to find out what they do mean by that statement.
Seriously, it is not rocket surgery.
Seriously.
Seriously.
And one more time, seriously.
17 Oct 2021, 2:49 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This is the repercussion of the current pogrom against teaching critical race theory.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
It's not rocket science. Educators have known for a couple of hundred years that filling kids heads with details doesn't make their child skilled, It's the ability to impart critical thinking. Employers want graduates who can solve problems and think outside the square. They want critical thinkers not homogenous clones who are full of information but don't know how to use it. This means teaching children critical thinking about why things like the holocaust happens is important, Opposing views teach children to bend the truth. That doesn't help their education.
So when politically infused doctrine contaminates the education system you get a form of book burning where some information is deemed innapropriate.
You do see the irony here, right?
Yes there is some irony there. But the question posed is what alternative narratives are there to explain the holocaust?
I have read where the cause of many of the deaths in the concentration camps was due to disease, as an example of what people don't want to hear.
Another observation was the food supply shortage causing deaths, as a result of allied bombing and simply the effects of war.
People don't want to hear that either, so it seems.
Also, doing simple maths suggests the story is more complicated than stated.
As I said, critical thinking is unwanted on this emotionally sensitive topic.
Understanding human psychology creates the formation of questions that most want to howl down.
I remember trying to approach this topic about 7 years ago, on WP.
The lack of sophistication I encountered at that time was frightening.
I wasn't expecting that on an autistic website.
I know better these days.
Yes, I've read and heard those very same things about disease and lack of food having been the cause of many deaths. That said, none of that would have happened had those people not been incarcerated in those camps in the first place.
You are missing the point, my friend.
17 Oct 2021, 3:16 am
Pepe wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
This person proposing this doesnt state what the phrase "alternate opinions" means.
Do they mean "the opinion" that the Holocaust didnt happen?
Or the opinon that it did happen, but that it was ok?
Either thing would be outrageous.
Do they mean "the opinion" that the Holocaust didnt happen?
Or the opinon that it did happen, but that it was ok?
Either thing would be outrageous.
The first step is to find out what they do mean by that statement.
Seriously, it is not rocket surgery.
Seriously.
Seriously.
And one more time, seriously.
I skipped the whole thread- just to ask the question "what was their point?".
So -since you didnt answer my question- you apparently dont know either.
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