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Brictoria
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19 Oct 2021, 8:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
"Trust different sources of information" seems like saying "Good people on both sides" -- people and opinions on opposite sides cannot both be correct; in a two-sided discussion, there must be one side that denies the truth and one side that relies upon it.

Well, let's start by looking at the sources of information that pushed a couple of recent lies:
Any source of information which stated that Mr Rogan used "horse paste" or "horse dewormer" can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Any source of information which has claimed that Covid could not have come from a lab leak (only those who claimed at any point that it was not possible, not those who discussed whether it was probable or not, which is a seperate issue) can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Pick a side: Either a source of information which claims January 6 was an insurrection, or the FBI who have found no evidence to support this claim can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Any source of information which stated that the border patrol were using whips on people crossing the border can be added to the "side that denies the truth".

You should probably compile a list of those sources which deny the truth, and add them to the list of "skeptics resources", to let people know they are untrustworthy...



Last edited by Brictoria on 19 Oct 2021, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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19 Oct 2021, 8:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Those Dems who believe those 9/11 conspiracy theories are obviously insane, and most liberals know it.


Oh really?

https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smit ... new-035224

Quote:
"How likely is it that people in the federal government either assisted in the 9/11 attacks or took no action to stop the attacks because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?" the poll asked.

A full 22.6% of Democrats said it was "very likely." Another 28.2% called it "somewhat likely."

That is: More than half of Democrats, according to a neutral survey, said they believed Bush was complicit in the 9/11 terror attacks.


There you have it, half of Democrats are obviously insane, to use your own words.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I've never heard the 2004 crap, and so I have to think few Democrats actually ever believed such a thing.


Less effective a rebuttal than you seem to think, given how little you seem to know. Even so:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... 020-448604

Quote:
Over the 16 years that followed the 2004 election, candidates have won and conceded; presidents have been inaugurated. But the loosely defined movement that launched back then has lived on. Most of its members are left-wing, though not all of them identify as Democrats. They’ve come to define their cause not around John Kerry’s rightful presidency, but around the idea of election integrity. Some are fixated on voter suppression; some subscribe to deep-state conspiracies about the manipulation of voting machines. What they share is a conviction that the 2004 election was a sham, and that it exposed a sweeping, anti-democratic cabal. Jonathan Simon, a onetime pollster-turned-lawyer-turned-chiropractor who worked with Freeman on his early analysis, summed up the prevailing view at a congressional hearing after the 2004 vote: “What we’re dealing with here, although the formality is all in place, is a stuffed animal, not a real animal—a taxidermic model of democracy.”

And many of them still believe that. Their continued commitment to the idea even today reveals that, once sown, doubt in the democratic process is difficult to dispel. Rather than recede with age, in many cases these 2004 skeptics’ concerns only deepened. And today, many of these 2004 figures have found a new cause in the 2020 election, embracing Trump’s claims about the results even if they are on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. The movement is starting to split, as others refuse to align themselves with the president and his supporters, and even think it’s dangerous to do so.

But despite this current divide, both sides are still united in one conviction: They still think the democratic process is deeply flawed—enough to throw an election in 2004, and enough to do it again. Simon, who still questions the 2004 election but doesn’t buy Trump’s claims, says his own reaction to the president has been edifying. “I recognize the irony: Now I’m the one asking for more evidence,” he says. Still, he identifies with something at the core of even Trump’s wildest rants. “The general proposition that you can’t trust the system,” he says, “that is valid.”


Kraichgauer wrote:
That Stacy Abrams might have won the election in Georgia could have been a reality if it hadn't been for voter suppression.


Just like Trump might have won in 2020 if it weren't for media bias and the tech, entertainment, intelligence, and academic sectors all doing their damnedest to insure his loss. You think it's different when you do it, but it's not.


Kraichgauer wrote:
The thing is, though, the majority of Republicans say they actually believe the idiocy that Trump had his victory stolen from him. I can't think of a single time when a majority of Democrats believed in something that is as verifiably false or patently ridiculous as the conspiracies the right is currently having convulsions over.


You still believe in RussiaGate, a wholly discredited conspiracy theory, among other verifiably untrue things that are common beliefs across your party. I already pointed out that over half the Democrats had at least some belief in 9/11 conspiracies, and if memory serves, there are other polls showing higher numbers than that. I could keep going, but with you I find that it's best to make my point and move on, as it's not like you're going to ever admit a mistake or change a belief.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Why so sensitive for the criticism of the Trump worshippers (which aren't all Republicans, by the way)?


It's not about them per se, it's about people like you who think you're better than them when you're not, you just worship a different set of false idols. You're the pot to their kettle, you just don't know it.


But does the poll show how those Dems believed Bush had been complicit? The fact that he was way too cozy with Saudi Royals, some of whom were sympathetic with Bin Laden, might lead one to suspect that he was an accessory after the fact by covering their involvement. And, no, I'm not saying he was.
As there is such a thing as voter suppression, and Georgia is one of the worst historical offenders, it's hardly the same thing to compare Abrams to Trump's claims. That's especially true as Trump has been a big supporter of voter suppression.
When was Russian involvement in Trump's election disproven? It's much more a fact that Republican politicians put party over country and acquitted Trump. There is a wealth of intelligence ignored by you guys on the right.
Am I better than the worshipers of the golden cow, who believe the most insane conspiracy theories, and who have opened their ranks to white nationalists and Alt-Righters? I don't know if "better" is the right word, but I'm certainly on the right side. Even if I happen to worship different false idols, that can't begin to compare with that insane idiocy your friends have embraced.


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DW_a_mom
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19 Oct 2021, 8:39 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
"Trust different sources of information" seems like saying "Good people on both sides" -- people and opinions on opposite sides cannot both be correct; in a two-sided discussion, there must be one side that denies the truth and one side that relies upon it.

Well, let's start by looking at the sources of information that pushed a couple of recent lies:
Any source of information which stated that Mr Rogan used "horse paste" or "horse dewormer" can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Any source of information which has claimed that Covid could not have come from a lab leak (only those who claimed at any point that it was not possible, not those who discussed whether it was probable or not, which is a seperate issue) can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Pick a side: Either a source of information which claims January 6 was an insurrection, or the FBI who have found no evidence to support this claim can be added to the "side that denies the truth".
Any source of information which stated that the border patrol were using whips on people crossing the border can be added to the "side that denies the truth".

You should probably compile a list of those sources which deny the truth, and add them to the list of "skeptics resources", to let people know they are untrustworthy...


I would argue that there is a clear difference between hazy information that is incorrectly understood in the short term, and an outright lie.

I don't have a problem with people being mistaken. I have a problem with people doubling down on misinformation when contradictory information emerges and they are aware of that new information.


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19 Oct 2021, 8:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
From "The Art of The Deal", p26...
Donald Trump wrote:
The other thing I do when I talk with reporters is to be straight.  I try not to deceive them or to be defensive, because those are precisely the ways most people get themselves into trouble with the press.  Instead, when a reporter asks me a tough question, I try to frame a positive answer...
What ever happened to THIS version of Donald Trump?  What turned him into the bitter, narcissistic a***hole he his today?


His ego grew much like a black hole and eventually absorbed his previous version. Once that happened, there was no turning back. He always had this version in him since day one.



funeralxempire
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19 Oct 2021, 8:45 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Fnord wrote:
From "The Art of The Deal", p26...
Donald Trump wrote:
The other thing I do when I talk with reporters is to be straight.  I try not to deceive them or to be defensive, because those are precisely the ways most people get themselves into trouble with the press.  Instead, when a reporter asks me a tough question, I try to frame a positive answer...
What ever happened to THIS version of Donald Trump?  What turned him into the bitter, narcissistic a***hole he his today?


I don’t think that version ever existed. At least, not when it comes to truth and fact as you or I might know them. I have to admit that one unusual element with the man is that more often than not I think he really believes his own lies. So to him, they aren’t lies.


This sounds about right. He hired a ghostwriter to make him look good, that's why you get answers like that.


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19 Oct 2021, 8:51 pm

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
No Sir. I'm not denying that there's "machinations" on both sides. I'm neither a "leftist," nor a "rightist." I'm a realist.

What I'm saying: There's good, hard evidence that Trump called that Georgia election official, and tried to finagle some nonexistent votes from the official. That goes beyond the pale of "politics as usual." This is Mafia-type stuff.

Trump is a sore loser, to say the least. Imagine if he would have had his allegations taken seriously? I tremble at the thought! We would become another Belarus. Or some Banana Republic. Trump wants to be a Generalissimo.

If no Electoral College, there would be NO Trump.


Assuming this is True, and I have no reason to think it isn't, it could be seen as political machinations countering machinations on the other side.

The bottom line is, the judicial system made a judgement call dismissing his claims.
I don't think any of the numerous legal maneuvers succeeded.
Correct me if I am wrong.

The assumption is that the American Judicial System has integrity.
In this instance, I believe it has in part because many judges involved were conservative. 8)


Judges can be and are often bought and paid for by cronies ..and suffer , nepotism as much as any
legal entity . Often there are very good friends in high places that get them where they are . :skull:


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cyberdad
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19 Oct 2021, 9:17 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
From "The Art of The Deal", p26...
Donald Trump wrote:
The other thing I do when I talk with reporters is to be straight.  I try not to deceive them or to be defensive, because those are precisely the ways most people get themselves into trouble with the press.  Instead, when a reporter asks me a tough question, I try to frame a positive answer...
What ever happened to THIS version of Donald Trump?  What turned him into the bitter, narcissistic a***hole he his today?


His ego grew much like a black hole and eventually absorbed his previous version. Once that happened, there was no turning back. He always had this version in him since day one.


Yes it's important to acknowledge that prior to putting his hat in the ring in the republican primaries that Trump did not consider himself a serious contender but thought it would boost his profile/brand by contesting elections.

Imagine his surprise when people not only bought his staged outrageous speeches but that millions were propelling him to the white house. This unexpected turn of events fed his latent narcissism and created the monster who in turn fed his burgeoning support base with more crazy ideas giving rise to MAGAs, QAnon and other crackpots.



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20 Oct 2021, 12:21 am

Jakki wrote:
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
No Sir. I'm not denying that there's "machinations" on both sides. I'm neither a "leftist," nor a "rightist." I'm a realist.

What I'm saying: There's good, hard evidence that Trump called that Georgia election official, and tried to finagle some nonexistent votes from the official. That goes beyond the pale of "politics as usual." This is Mafia-type stuff.

Trump is a sore loser, to say the least. Imagine if he would have had his allegations taken seriously? I tremble at the thought! We would become another Belarus. Or some Banana Republic. Trump wants to be a Generalissimo.

If no Electoral College, there would be NO Trump.


Assuming this is True, and I have no reason to think it isn't, it could be seen as political machinations countering machinations on the other side.

The bottom line is, the judicial system made a judgement call dismissing his claims.
I don't think any of the numerous legal maneuvers succeeded.
Correct me if I am wrong.

The assumption is that the American Judicial System has integrity.
In this instance, I believe it has in part because many judges involved were conservative. 8)


Judges can be and are often bought and paid for by cronies ..and suffer , nepotism as much as any
legal entity . Often there are very good friends in high places that get them where they are . :skull:


Self-evidently true.
We simply have to make our own judgement calls the best we can. 8)



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21 Oct 2021, 8:21 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ive-lost-joy ... 03731.html

By the way, here's some more unparalleled lunacy from the right.


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24 Oct 2021, 12:47 pm

And still even more right wing idiocy!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-qanon ... 21873.html


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24 Oct 2021, 5:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
And still even more right wing idiocy!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-qanon ... 21873.html


You have a free pass from me, my friend.
Please don't abuse it. 8)



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24 Oct 2021, 6:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
And still even more right wing idiocy!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-qanon ... 21873.html
I forget; which one is he - Beavis or Butt-head? :P


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24 Oct 2021, 8:57 pm

its a fact you do need to sort where you choose to source your media from .
When left wing people do exactly what they were doing during Trumps intial run for the presidency. i read what Kirch posted/ linked and could easily see picking and choosing and mixing and matching by its producer . Bit and pieces of obvious bs that was associated with the trump campaign again . Of course trump and his kind are anti vaxxers( unless you consider that he fast tracked the vaccine and publically took it as well .)
Issues Regardless of whether or not they had anything to actually do with his campaign . But rather some weirdo stuff that was propagated on the net .
Am not necessarily a fan of Trump but i definitely not a fan of media bs . That is designed to look like it is a grassroots thing that got leaked? . So lets consider this giant anti vax issue by
republicans , if this is the case??? Why not wait till all the Republicans die from the virus?So there will be noone left to vote for Trump .
Even with trumps associates , their are some that deserve the noose . But even i have known people that whom deserve far worse than hanging . And took me years to realise how aweful of monsters they were.


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Kraichgauer
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24 Oct 2021, 9:44 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And still even more right wing idiocy!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-qanon ... 21873.html
I forget; which one is he - Beavis or Butt-head? :P


Me too! :lol:


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24 Oct 2021, 10:03 pm

He sure gets a lot of press for an ex-president.



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24 Oct 2021, 11:10 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
He sure gets a lot of press for an ex-president.


That' because his political influence has outlived his Presidency. And that influence is entirely of a negative and destructive nature.


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