Actor Alec Baldwin shoots 2 people, killing one of them.

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Dox47
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08 Nov 2021, 2:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
When we do you keep shifting the goal posts.


Tell me what the goal posts were before I "moved" them. Or is this another case of you using an expression you don't actually know the meaning of?


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Dox47
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08 Nov 2021, 2:12 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Thank you for stating the obvious! The same people who say Trump had no untoward relationship with Putin are usually the same who say he had nothing to hide with his financials, even though he's refused to release his income tax returns.


Nice job ignoring the thread, you lasted minutes, minutes


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08 Nov 2021, 2:13 am

Dox47 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
When we do you keep shifting the goal posts.


Tell me what the goal posts were before I "moved" them. Or is this another case of you using an expression you don't actually know the meaning of?


We've been here before, I forget whatever your original question was as you meander off the original post.



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08 Nov 2021, 2:16 am

cyberdad wrote:
We've been here before, I forget whatever your original question was as you meander off the original post.


So, you're claiming I moved the goalposts, but you also don't know where the goalposts originally were? You're not making a good case for understanding the expression here.


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08 Nov 2021, 2:17 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But there is a simple reality involved here that may or may not have anything to do with Russian collusion: people don’t stonewall and pull the tricks Trump did to hinder the Mueller investigation if they have nothing to hide. Trump is hiding something, and we can’t say if it has anything to do with Russia or not because he won the game and kept the prying eyes out.

How anyone can say anything other than “we will never know” is beyond me. Investigate it to death, report it to death, but something happened Trump worked hard to keep us from discovering, and people went to jail to help him do so. The only people who know what that something is aren’t talking.


That sounds like you're insisting that a negative be proven in order to put the fake scandal to rest. I don't care what Trump pulled to obstruct, that could just be Trump being Trump, the fact that the whole investigation was built on a fake dossier bought with Clinton campaign oppo money, whose primary source was just arrested for lying to the FBI ought to shake your faith that anything happened, read those Greenwald and Taibbi links I posted, that's just the tip of the iceberg on this thing, the real story is the media collusion on it.


You mention the dossier, but make no mention of Trump's too cozy relationship with Putin almost to the expense of our allies, his meetings with Russian intelligence allegedly to discuss "adoption," his convenient suggestion to the Russians to dig around Clinton's emails - followed up by a Kremlin troll farm doing just that, his meeting with Russian agents in the White House where he gave them top secret Israeli intelligence, etc., etc., etc. There's a lot more than just that dossier that you've chosen to ignore.


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08 Nov 2021, 2:19 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Thank you for stating the obvious! The same people who say Trump had no untoward relationship with Putin are usually the same who say he had nothing to hide with his financials, even though he's refused to release his income tax returns.


Nice job ignoring the thread, you lasted minutes, minutes


Thanks, I enjoy the compliment! :twisted:


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DW_a_mom
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08 Nov 2021, 2:21 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Remember that best action in those situations is WALK AWAY.

If people are being dense, it doesn’t usually help anything to point it out, “honest” or not.

(Not to mention, the question of who is being dense v who is failing to communicate is quite subjective, and not an item of fact)


I've tried it your way for the better part of 10 years, and all that has been accomplished is that the board has been surrendered to the densest and loudest posters who are the most willing to ignore contradicting information and turn this place into an echo chamber. Also, you don't like misinformation, why are you willing to tolerate it here? Should I not call it out in the harshest terms when I see it?


You know my position. Once you know your best argument is in the thread and clearly stated, you’ve done all you can. If people need to entertain themselves with superfluous arguments it isn’t your problem. I can tell when a post is full of fluff or useless information and don’t see much point in reading when a conversation gets like that. Sometimes it seems people are just bored and taking just to talk. I have my days like that, and other days I’m more interested in figuring out the real answer. When the bad information is clearly the posters personal opinion and not a factual sales pitch, I like to make sure the counteracting facts exist in the thread, but it isn’t likely to be worth pushing further after that.

I know I can trust you to have a keen eye for information I may not have encountered elsewhere, and that those are the posts of yours I look for. I truly appreciate the perspective. But when it starts going in circles like it does here, it feels more like you are being controlled by your own stubbornness than a need to keep the truth clear. I’ve been there, I’ve done that, and I’ve always regretted it. You can simply say “those aren’t the facts” or “I disagree.” Or what I’ve done sometimes “I’ve already made my point.” Three pages trying to evaluate why someone can’t understand what you are saying is a waste of energy, messes with your head, and creates a burden for the forum, IMHO.


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Dox47
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08 Nov 2021, 2:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

You mention the dossier, but make no mention of Trump's too cozy relationship with Putin almost to the expense of our allies,


Trump was personally friendly to Putin, but his policy was not, as this website mentions, the administration policy was often at odds with the president's rhetoric:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... on-russia/

Kraichgauer wrote:
his meetings with Russian intelligence allegedly to discuss "adoption,"


Do you mean the Trump Tower meeting with Don Jr and Kushner during the campaign? The Donald wasn't actually there for that, the Russians weren't intelligence officers, and the whole thing was a farce, Jr thought they were there to offer dirt on Hilary, while the Russians were there to talk about the Magnitsky act that they were trying to get lifted, that Trump Jr had no idea what they were even talking about.

Kraichgauer wrote:
his convenient suggestion to the Russians to dig around Clinton's emails - followed up by a Kremlin troll farm doing just that,


You mean when he literally yelled it in public? That's, uh, not how collusion usually works.

Kraichgauer wrote:
his meeting with Russian agents in the White House where he gave them top secret Israeli intelligence, etc., etc., etc.


The guy has a big mouth, IIRC that wasn't the only time he blabbed secret information in public, and not just to the Russians. Again, if you're secretly colluding with someone, you usually don't do this sort of thing in public.

Kraichgauer wrote:
There's a lot more than just that dossier that you've chosen to ignore.


You mean like the fake Alfa Bank scandal that's also been debunked? I'm not ignoring the dossier by the way, I'm debunking it, as in pointing out that's it's fake, and the whole investigating that sprung from it is the fruit of a poisonous tree, equally fake. All of the subpoenas and investigations came from the dossier, so if the dossier is fake, which is increasingly beyond doubt, than the whole thing is fake, and the media spent the better part of 4 years lying to you about it, which you swallowed hook line and sinker because it confirmed your priors.


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Dox47
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08 Nov 2021, 2:41 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Three pages trying to evaluate why someone can’t understand what you are saying is a waste of energy, messes with your head, and creates a burden for the forum, IMHO.


Sometimes a point needs to be made, and not just to that particular poster.


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08 Nov 2021, 2:41 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
But there is a simple reality involved here that may or may not have anything to do with Russian collusion: people don’t stonewall and pull the tricks Trump did to hinder the Mueller investigation if they have nothing to hide. Trump is hiding something, and we can’t say if it has anything to do with Russia or not because he won the game and kept the prying eyes out.

How anyone can say anything other than “we will never know” is beyond me. Investigate it to death, report it to death, but something happened Trump worked hard to keep us from discovering, and people went to jail to help him do so. The only people who know what that something is aren’t talking.


That sounds like you're insisting that a negative be proven in order to put the fake scandal to rest. I don't care what Trump pulled to obstruct, that could just be Trump being Trump, the fact that the whole investigation was built on a fake dossier bought with Clinton campaign oppo money, whose primary source was just arrested for lying to the FBI ought to shake your faith that anything happened, read those Greenwald and Taibbi links I posted, that's just the tip of the iceberg on this thing, the real story is the media collusion on it.


I’m following along. There are specifics that have proven to be quite … slimy. And the slim wasn’t Trump’s. There is no denying that. The Clinton team wasn’t all purity and roses by any stretch.

But that isn’t and never has been all of the story. “The whole thing” goes far beyond the discredited report. I do care what Trump pulled to obstruct. He created precedents that are extremely damaging to our system of checks and balances. He ran roughshod over our constitutional safeguards. So yes I care very much. Perhaps he did it for no good reason other than to build his ego, but we will never know. This is a man who is skilled in covering his tracks. He plays all the classic protocols for hiding shady business dealings to perfection. He is hiding something. Perhaps it’s criminal. Perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps it’s that he’s a worse businessman than he claims to be. Perhaps it’s a promise to Putin. We don’t know. But there is something for which no paper trail exists, only personal testimony, and those voices are staying loyal. We can’t convict him in a court of law for that, but I know from experience that no one fights that hard unless they have something big to hide. Every sign is there. He’s hiding something big.


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08 Nov 2021, 2:45 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

You mention the dossier, but make no mention of Trump's too cozy relationship with Putin almost to the expense of our allies,


Trump was personally friendly to Putin, but his policy was not, as this website mentions, the administration policy was often at odds with the president's rhetoric:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... on-russia/

Kraichgauer wrote:
his meetings with Russian intelligence allegedly to discuss "adoption,"


Do you mean the Trump Tower meeting with Don Jr and Kushner during the campaign? The Donald wasn't actually there for that, the Russians weren't intelligence officers, and the whole thing was a farce, Jr thought they were there to offer dirt on Hilary, while the Russians were there to talk about the Magnitsky act that they were trying to get lifted, that Trump Jr had no idea what they were even talking about.

Kraichgauer wrote:
his convenient suggestion to the Russians to dig around Clinton's emails - followed up by a Kremlin troll farm doing just that,


You mean when he literally yelled it in public? That's, uh, not how collusion usually works.

Kraichgauer wrote:
his meeting with Russian agents in the White House where he gave them top secret Israeli intelligence, etc., etc., etc.


The guy has a big mouth, IIRC that wasn't the only time he blabbed secret information in public, and not just to the Russians. Again, if you're secretly colluding with someone, you usually don't do this sort of thing in public.

Kraichgauer wrote:
There's a lot more than just that dossier that you've chosen to ignore.


You mean like the fake Alfa Bank scandal that's also been debunked? I'm not ignoring the dossier by the way, I'm debunking it, as in pointing out that's it's fake, and the whole investigating that sprung from it is the fruit of a poisonous tree, equally fake. All of the subpoenas and investigations came from the dossier, so if the dossier is fake, which is increasingly beyond doubt, than the whole thing is fake, and the media spent the better part of 4 years lying to you about it, which you swallowed hook line and sinker because it confirmed your priors.


I could care less if Trump had been present or not. And yes, the Russians present there did have intelligence ties.
Next you'll be saying that Deutsch Bank was not up to it's ears with Russian intelligence/mob/oligarchs, and that their loan to Trump by means of the Russians hadn't compromised him.
Putin is a spymaster. His whole career was built on compromising assets in order to get the most out of them.
Trump's policies were Anti-Russian? That's not how the Russians saw it.


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08 Nov 2021, 3:21 am

*sigh*

I'll properly litigate Russian collusion in it's own thread at the appropriate time, I get the feeling this one has a limited shelf life, and I don't want to put a bunch of time and effort into something only for it to get locked or deleted. It won't even be to change minds, at this point I'm in it for the scalps.


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08 Nov 2021, 4:43 am

Dox47 wrote:
at this point I'm in it for the scalps.


Ouch. Can I please keep mine?


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Dox47
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08 Nov 2021, 4:50 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Ouch. Can I please keep mine?


Of course, just be open minded, that's all I ever ask.


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08 Nov 2021, 4:56 am

Dox47 wrote:
*sigh*

I'll properly litigate Russian collusion in it's own thread at the appropriate time, I get the feeling this one has a limited shelf life, and I don't want to put a bunch of time and effort into something only for it to get locked or deleted. It won't even be to change minds, at this point I'm in it for the scalps.


If the thread was created by the type of person who creates threads then asks moderators to close them when they don't head in the "required" direction, that would certainly be likely, but I don't imagine the OP for this thread would raise an issues with you doing so :)

That said, certain people with "power" may decide to surreptitiously remove posts as being "off topic" (or not to their personal liking), so a seperate thread may be wisest.



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08 Nov 2021, 6:05 am

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Remember that best action in those situations is WALK AWAY.

If people are being dense, it doesn’t usually help anything to point it out, “honest” or not.

(Not to mention, the question of who is being dense v who is failing to communicate is quite subjective, and not an item of fact)


I've tried it your way for the better part of 10 years, and all that has been accomplished is that the board has been surrendered to the densest and loudest posters who are the most willing to ignore contradicting information and turn this place into an echo chamber. Also, you don't like misinformation, why are you willing to tolerate it here? Should I not call it out in the harshest terms when I see it?


"You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."
Some people are more emotional than rational.
What can you do? :shrug:

I often use:
"Let us agree to disagree", when I confront a situation where no compromise can be found.
Perhaps it is something that might ease your frustration? :scratch: