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Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 4:53 am

Not content with badgering the population of London by obstructing their major roads, insulate Britain have decided to go north to harass the working class folk in that stick of the woods.

Manchester and Birmingham seem to be their target this time and it'll be interesting to see who they decide to aggravate today.

Only a matter of time before they're slapped I imagine.



Mountain Goat
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03 Nov 2021, 5:07 am

Who are they trying to insolate? Plenty of homes need to be insulated. But I don't get why blocking of roads will do this.


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naturalplastic
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03 Nov 2021, 7:12 am

I wanna be...an Insulation Terrorist! :D

Where do I sign up?

=========

Actually that might make a good plot for a police drama.

Folks pretending to be political whackos, like Peta, vandalize a corporation demanding that it put in insulation in it buildings. But it turns out to be a protection racket being run by...an insulation company!



Mountain Goat
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03 Nov 2021, 7:33 am

Yes... It might work.


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DuckHairback
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03 Nov 2021, 8:16 am

Mountain Goat wrote:
Who are they trying to insolate? Plenty of homes need to be insulated. But I don't get why blocking of roads will do this.


The actions of Insulate Britain and other disruptive protest groups are often misunderstood in this way and misrepresented in our media. If you only look at the issue and the action then it makes no sense at all. Blocking a motorway doesn't directly have any impact on insulating homes, so WTF? People write them off as morons or just people who like making trouble because there is no obvious link.

But they know exactly what they're doing and while it is dangerous and disruptive, it isn't moronic or without precedent.

Civil disobedience/disruptive protest is NOT designed to win over the hearts and minds of the masses. They don't care that people are annoyed by this sort of thing. It doesn't matter that they are not liked by 'the public'. It's not important to achieving the goal - you don't need the support of the masses to effect change.

The real point is to get people arrested. As many as possible. You might notice that police don't arrest many of these protesters. They could, but they don't, despite the macho posturing from the Home Office which is simply done to play to the press. The reason they don't is because arresting these protesters gets them exactly what they want.

What do they want? Press coverage. The more people you can get arrested, the more press coverage you will get. It's as simple as that.

Again it doesn't matter if the press coverage is supportive or not. More likely it won't be. It doesn't matter. The point isn't to win a popularity contest, it's to get the government to commit to insulating homes.

What these protesters are trying to do is to force a crisis. With things like insulating homes you have to force the crisis because by the time the real crisis arrives, it'll be too late - you can't quickly insulate x million homes in response to a power or environmental crisis, people will just die.

By putting the issue on the front pages, you make it an issue. People start talking about it. Just like Nades has by starting this thread. It comes to the forefront of the public consciousness instead of being a background issue, if its an issue at all. One more time, it doesn't matter if the public are not on the side of the protesters or can't see the point of the action.

In actuality, what you tend to hear is a variation on this statement, "I think we should be insulating homes better but I don't support the actions of Insulate Britain"

Well, yeah. Because not insulating homes is genuinely moronic. Who would support that? Only an idiot or a dedicated contrarian.

So what you've done is force the issue into public consciousness by disruptive means. If you keep doing that, over and over, eventually it becomes a crisis and the government has to do something. And no, arresting them all and putting them in jail - the 'common man's' solution. Doesn't work. It just makes it more of a crisis. That's why the police don't arrest them all, the government absolutely does not want this on the front pages.

People smugly implying that these protesters will probably get a slap from a frustrated driver soon miss the point. That's also a big win for the protesters - they know this is a possibilty, it's a sacrifice they'll make happily to get those front pages.

If (and that is the big question) Insulate Britain can keep raising the pressure with more extreme actions and more arrests, at some stage the government will have to act and because the vast majority of people do want insulated homes, the only action they can take is to commit to insulate homes. It'll get spun as a government victory and the protesters will be quite happy with that because they got what they wanted.

This is how change can be effected by a relatively small group of people. It's a shame. I'd far rather live in a society where our governments do listen to persuasive arguments of normal people instead of the big money of corporate lobbyists. Where our media isn't owned and operated by vested interests and ideologues. That would be sweet.

But we don't live in that world. If you want rapid change that's good for everyone but will put the noses of the powerful out of joint, you're going to have to make a nuisance of yourself.


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Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 8:19 am

naturalplastic wrote:
I wanna be...an Insulation Terrorist! :D

Where do I sign up?

=========

Actually that might make a good plot for a police drama.

Folks pretending to be political whackos, like Peta, vandalize a corporation demanding that it put in insulation in it buildings. But it turns out to be a protection racket being run by...an insulation company!


No need too. You just need a starter pack of a tube of super glue, blue hair, a childlike understanding of society and tremendous arrogance. Smelling like cheese also helps you gain their trust just like how dogs clue each other out by smelling arse all day.

Sadly I get bored after sniffing just two or three so it's not a job I'm well suited for.



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03 Nov 2021, 8:22 am

To simplify: The "Insulate Britain" protesters demand that the government insulate all social housing in the UK by 2025 and retrofit all homes with insulation by 2030.

So ... instead of making their case inside London proper, where the majority of Social/Council Housing seems to be, they go to rural places with fewer houses and people and raise their ruckus there.

Kinda like protesting against a new paint scheme for Mar-A-Lago by blocking off a road in Nome, Alaska.



Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 8:26 am

DuckHairback wrote:
Mountain Goat wrote:
Who are they trying to insolate? Plenty of homes need to be insulated. But I don't get why blocking of roads will do this.


The actions of Insulate Britain and other disruptive protest groups are often misunderstood in this way and misrepresented in our media. If you only look at the issue and the action then it makes no sense at all. Blocking a motorway doesn't directly have any impact on insulating homes, so WTF? People write them off as morons or just people who like making trouble because there is no obvious link.

But they know exactly what they're doing and while it is dangerous and disruptive, it isn't moronic or without precedent.

Civil disobedience/disruptive protest is NOT designed to win over the hearts and minds of the masses. They don't care that people are annoyed by this sort of thing. It doesn't matter that they are not liked by 'the public'. It's not important to achieving the goal - you don't need the support of the masses to effect change.

The real point is to get people arrested. As many as possible. You might notice that police don't arrest many of these protesters. They could, but they don't, despite the macho posturing from the Home Office which is simply done to play to the press. The reason they don't is because arresting these protesters gets them exactly what they want.

What do they want? Press coverage. The more people you can get arrested, the more press coverage you will get. It's as simple as that.

Again it doesn't matter if the press coverage is supportive or not. More likely it won't be. It doesn't matter. The point isn't to win a popularity contest, it's to get the government to commit to insulating homes.

What these protesters are trying to do is to force a crisis. With things like insulating homes you have to force the crisis because by the time the real crisis arrives, it'll be too late - you can't quickly insulate x million homes in response to a power or environmental crisis, people will just die.

By putting the issue on the front pages, you make it an issue. People start talking about it. Just like Nades has by starting this thread. It comes to the forefront of the public consciousness instead of being a background issue, if its an issue at all. One more time, it doesn't matter if the public are not on the side of the protesters or can't see the point of the action.

In actuality, what you tend to hear is a variation on this statement, "I think we should be insulating homes better but I don't support the actions of Insulate Britain"

Well, yeah. Because not insulating homes is genuinely moronic. Who would support that? Only an idiot or a dedicated contrarian.

So what you've done is force the issue into public consciousness by disruptive means. If you keep doing that, over and over, eventually it becomes a crisis and the government has to do something. And no, arresting them all and putting them in jail - the 'common man's' solution. Doesn't work. It just makes it more of a crisis. That's why the police don't arrest them all, the government absolutely does not want this on the front pages.

People smugly implying that these protesters will probably get a slap from a frustrated driver soon miss the point. That's also a big win for the protesters - they know this is a possibilty, it's a sacrifice they'll make happily to get those front pages.

If (and that is the big question) Insulate Britain can keep raising the pressure with more extreme actions and more arrests, at some stage the government will have to act and because the vast majority of people do want insulated homes, the only action they can take is to commit to insulate homes. It'll get spun as a government victory and the protesters will be quite happy with that because they got what they wanted.

This is how change can be effected by a relatively small group of people. It's a shame. I'd far rather live in a society where our governments do listen to persuasive arguments of normal people instead of the big money of corporate lobbyists. Where our media isn't owned and operated by vested interests and ideologues. That would be sweet.

But we don't live in that world. If you want rapid change that's good for everyone but will put the noses of the powerful out of joint, you're going to have to make a nuisance of yourself.


Insulating homes is very expensive though. A lot of those protesting don't even live in well insulated homes themselves.

There is also debate of where the rights of 12 people to partake in disruptive protest is weighed up against the rights of thousands to a private and family life.

A judge has ruled recently that the thousands getting to work, going home, going to hospital and food deliveries is more important than the right of a handful of people to protest on a motorway.

Public opinion of protestors also matter too. The second they interrupt the rights of others is the second they're hated.



Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 8:31 am

Fnord wrote:
To simplify: The "Insulate Britain" protesters demand that the government insulate all social housing in the UK by 2025 and retrofit all homes with insulation by 2030.

So ... instead of making their case inside London proper, where the majority of Social/Council Housing seems to be, they go to rural places with fewer houses and people and raise their ruckus there.

Kinda like protesting against a new paint scheme for Mar-A-Lago by blocking off a road in Nome, Alaska.


Ironically they're targeting the people they want to "help". Manchester and Birmingham are big places but the people there are the ones who are much less likely to afford to insulate their homes than London residents and might actually need government grants to insulate their homes..........so the protesters seem to want to ruin their day for some reason.



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03 Nov 2021, 9:12 am

Nades wrote:
Insulating homes is very expensive though. A lot of those protesting don't even live in well insulated homes themselves.


Yes it is. And maybe they don't. I don't know. But they're not asking people to insulate their own homes. They're asking the government to insulate the homes it's responsible for and to make it obligatory for people to insulate privately owned homes, with support to do so if necessary. This is not hypocritical as any legislation would apply to them equally.

Nades wrote:
There is also debate of where the rights of 12 people to partake in disruptive protest is weighed up against the rights of thousands to a private and family life.

A judge has ruled recently that the thousands getting to work, going home, going to hospital and food deliveries is more important than the right of a handful of people to protest on a motorway.


Debate is fine and dandy by me.

Nades wrote:
Public opinion of protestors also matter too. The second they interrupt the rights of others is the second they're hated.


This is the only point I disagree with you on, and it's a point that a lot of people have trouble accepting. If the goal is structural change and change can be effected by a small number of people being disruptive (which it demonstrably can if you look to history for examples - in fact it may be the only reliable way of effecting change) then no, public opinion of protestors is immaterial. Doesn't affect the outcome one bit. Again, look to history. 9 times out of 10 public opinion is against those protesting for change, until change is achieved and becomes the new normal. Then suddenly it becomes obvious to the masses that change was inevitable and right.

I want to be clear that I'm not a 'supporter' of disruptive protest. I'm not saying it's morally right. I'd be just as pissed off as anyone if I was in an ambulance and I couldn't get to a hospital. I'm just interested in why people do things and I've read quite a bit about the theory behind disruptive protest. There's logic and strategy behind what these people are doing.


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03 Nov 2021, 10:56 am

Aren’t there programs to help low income folks with insulation?


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naturalplastic
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03 Nov 2021, 11:24 am

Apparently their goal is not QUITE as vague and insane as I first thought.

Its not literally the whole nation, its just public housing, already run by the govt., that they want the govt. to take this action on. But I am sure that even THAT is huge amount of housing to remodel.

But their tactics DO sound crazy.

But on the other hand...why didnt the government think about saving energy with good insulation back when it built these housing projects?



Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 11:38 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Apparently their goal is not QUITE as vague and insane as I first thought.

Its not literally the whole nation, its just public housing, already run by the govt., that they want the govt. to take this action on. But I am sure that even THAT is huge amount of housing to remodel.

But their tactics DO sound crazy.

But on the other hand...why didnt the government think about saving energy with good insulation back when it built these housing projects?



It is indeed a lot of houses to insulate. The problem is that a lot of the people protesting are either hypocrites or not in a position to complain.

The ringleader is an electrician who despite having no need for a social house due to his income, has decided to shove himself in one anyway and deprive someone more needy of one. His house is also very poorly insulated.

Another is a landlord with a good property empire of houses......many of which he hasn't insulated very well.

Many are old retired fossils who abuse their amble free time to block the roads for people who need to go to work.

Others are just crazy.

A lot of these houses were built in the 50's, 60s, and 70's too. Back then insulation wasn't as big a deal.



Last edited by Nades on 03 Nov 2021, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nades
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03 Nov 2021, 11:38 am

Misslizard wrote:
Aren’t there programs to help low income folks with insulation?


Yeah the NEST scheme. I looked I to it myself but the paperwork is annoying.



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03 Nov 2021, 11:56 am

The houses built in the 50's had cavity walls which are designed to have an air gap between them. Many of these houses have had expanding foam pumped into these gaps and have had bad dampness issues ever since. This is because of condensation as there is no where where conde sation can get out. There has also been an increase in the residents picking up various viruses because the warm damp enviroment is the ideal breeding ground for germs and viruses. The houses that did not have the insulation have not had any damp issues and continue doing the job they were intended to do. My Dad worked on them for years and they knew these houses would give problwms if the cavities were insulated. It had been tried years ago and was abandoned due to the issues and they went back to leaving the air do its job. The principle is that this gap of air acts both as an insulator and as a ventilation to prevent dampness. The only downside to this system is that if one has a roof leak, the metal wall ties rust so will need replacing.


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03 Nov 2021, 12:01 pm

Nades wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Aren’t there programs to help low income folks with insulation?


Yeah the NEST scheme. I looked I to it myself but the paperwork is annoying.

That’s a shame.It’s pretty easy here.I got several single pane windows replaced and weather stripping done.


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