Today I started a conversation with a girl

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QFT
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07 Jan 2022, 8:43 am

Fireblossom wrote:
The way I understood the girl's answer was that it was okay for that other guy to have messy hair 'cause he had a reason for it, but not okay for you to have it since, in her eyes, you didn't have a reason. As in, since you didn't specifically make sure your hair looks like that for some cause, it just means that you left it like that on purpose because you don't care enough to make it look decent. So, the difference between you and the other guy, in the girl's eyes, was that the other guy's hair looked messy in order for him to fit a certain group, while yours looked messy because you didn't care enough to make yourself look decent.


I guess I feel like "doing something for a reason" is "being a jerk" while "not bothering enough" is "being unaware". Someone who is a jerk should be blamed more than someone unaware.

Its true that I "don't care enough to look decent". But its not true that I don't care about other things. I very much *do* care about other things -- as evident by my complaining about being ostracized. It is just that I think some things are important (such as actual emotional connection) while other things aren't (such as the piece of clothing I put on). So I "don't bother enough" with things I don't regard as important while I feel miserable about the things that I do.

Fireblossom wrote:
And another possibility that occurred to me while writing the above was that you had an overall messy appearance while the other guy did not, so with the other guy, the messy hair was easier to overlook because he looked decent otherwise.


I guess the way my mind sees things is that once it saw the hair it just "decided" he is messy. But now that I think of it, I actually have no idea how the rest of his appearance was. Maybe he was neat. Maybe not. But my mind wouldn't catch it since it wouldn't get past his hair.

But now that I think of it, when others are judging me it is the same concept. The main thing I am frustrated about is that once people run across a turn-off (be it appearance or anything else) they wouldn't care about my personlity. They will just assume its all negative because those few things are negative.

But, interestingly enough, in case of that guy, others *can* separate hair from the rest of his appearance, even though I can't do that. While in my case its the others that are unable to separate my appearance from my personalty.

Fireblossom wrote:
For what it's worth, I also prefer to blame people who do rude or bad things on purpose over those who do them on accident. However, often people can't tell these two apart.


As far as "people can't tell these two apart", you said in the previous message that they "do" know I "don't care enough" -- and in fact thats what turns them off. But in the quote right now you are saying they "don't" know its not on purpose. So are you saying its possible "not to care enough" in a way that it is still "on purpose"? Maybe by "on purpose" you mean something different than what I mean?

Fireblossom wrote:
There's also the fact that majority of people would certainly know by your age and long before how to take care of themselves enough to not look messy and know lots of the social rules that you break, so when people see someone who doesn't fit that assumption, it's not that weird for them to think that the person is either being rude on purpose or have something seriously off about them (like being a drug addict etc.)


As far as "being rude on purpose", what would be my motivation? I mean there is a motivation to be rude towards someone in particular, if that person made me mad or something. But by being messy I am not rude at anyone in particular. Rather I am rude towards general public. So what would be my supposed motivation if that was the case?

As far as appearing on drugs, that is something I realized when I was 35 but not before then. I remember, back when I was 26, I dated a girl who was diagnosed as "bipolar with psychotic features". She later told me that when she saw me with a big backpack she suspected I was homeless. But she told me in the context of describing her own "psychotic feautres" so she just attributted it to her paranoia, and so did I.

Now, the reason I didn't get upset over it is that it was one isolated incident. But then after 35 it was no longer isolated incident. It was a pattern. So thats why I get so angry about it, since they think I am homeless or on drugs and I never saw myself that way.

I guess I could fix this by being more neat. But I can't fix my age, so I wish I could do it earlier.

Fireblossom wrote:
Quote:
What I REALLY want to do after I come back is to tell her about my Asperger and then recollect that incident, apologize for it, and simply ask her what it is she wanted to say. I guess my past experience says that this kind of thing doesn't usually help. Usully people are only pushed away further when I overanalyze things like that. But I just really want to "undo" that mistake.


Don't; it'll most likely make you look worse. The best way to "undo" the bad impression is to make a good impression on her enough times. In this case, since all you did was a simple small talk error, it should get fixed by enough successful small talk.


As far as "enough successful small talk", that depends on whether she would be starting conversations with me. She did back then. Which makes me feel that she would have continued if only I didn't do that small talk error. But I did. So maybe she wouldn't be starting conversation with me because of that error. And I would have to go through all those burdens starting conversations just because of this.

Of course, if I were to directly ask about the small talk error I would have to start a conversation too. But at least it would be dealing with the issue directly. And I would rather deal directly than indirectly. If I deal directly she immediately knows I didn't mean to do what I did. But if I deal indirectly then it would take a lot of successful interactions for her to know it, not just one or two.

But then again if I deal directly then I would create a brand new problem: namely she would see that I am the kind of person that doesn't let go of things, to the point of analyzing them two weeks later. So if she prefers someone easy going that would make her not want to talk to me. That, plus brining it up won't help me much anyway. Because my part of my intention would be to ask her what would she have said if I didn't walk away (in order to get back to that conversation that felt so smooth), but she probably won't remember what she would have said.

So I am not sure whether I will bring it up or not. I will see based on the dynamics of our conversation.

Fireblossom wrote:
Quote:
Okay what do you mean by rude? If you mean walking up to her and saying "hey why do you wear miniskirt", I won't do that. I mean I don't see how I EVER would.


That too, but I also meant things like ignoring her if she says hello to you.


I tend to do this to everyone, not just the people I dislike. One thing that comes to mind is that when people wave I don't always know if they wave at me or not. When they smile, even if I know they smile at me, I don't know whether they want to start a small talk. So those are the examples when I might ignore them. Do you think is enough for people to see me as rude?

Fireblossom wrote:
And while it's true that friends tend to have similiar morals, there are two things that you should take in to account:
1. They might not see how one dresses as a question of moral at all but just a question of style. Just because the other girl doesn't dress in miniskirt/minishirt (which one are we talking about here, really? First message said shirt, this one skirt, but you spoke about exposing the stomach, so...) doesn't mean she thinks it's immoral. She might simply not wear one because she doesn't like how it looks. Or maybe she does wear one sometimes but just hasn't worn one the times you've seen her.
2. While there are certain things that people don't budge on, they can have compromises with friends and don't have to agree on everything. Like, let's say that two friends both thought that no one deserves to starve to death, and that was enough of moral common ground for them to be friends, even if they disagreed on who should feed a person who can't feed themselves. One of them might say the society, while the other might say that the society should only be forced to step up if the person had no relatives alive that could provide for them. Their views aren't completely at line with each other, but enough for them to not be upset about the other's views.


I think I might be choosing wrong words to communicate what I am trying to say. I was not talking about views or beliefs. Rather I was talking about lifestyle. As in, someone with miniskirt would go to bars and drink a lot, while someone dressed the way the other girl did would spend time at the libraries. Of course those are not true assumptions to make. But if that was true, then these two girls wouldn't be friends with each other.

As far as other things, such as (2), there are plenty of friends who have different political or religious views, so thats not what I was talking about.



kraftiekortie
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07 Jan 2022, 9:10 am

Your over-analysis is your Achilles Heel.

But if girl doesn’t mind it: cool.



QFT
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07 Jan 2022, 9:35 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Your over-analysis is your Achilles Heel.

But if girl doesn’t mind it: cool.


The question is: how would the girl know that I overanalyze, unless I do it out loud?



kraftiekortie
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07 Jan 2022, 9:39 am

That’s true. They wouldn’t know unless you do it out loud.

If you ask lots of questions in a vigilant manner, that would be interpreted as being overly-analytical.

It’s nice that you were given a ride. Many people outside urban areas readily give rides to people.



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07 Jan 2022, 11:41 am

QFT wrote:
But now that I think of it, when others are judging me it is the same concept. The main thing I am frustrated about is that once people run across a turn-off (be it appearance or anything else) they wouldn't care about my personlity. They will just assume its all negative because those few things are negative.


That's just how it goes. Of course, when people have no choice but to spend time together (same class, close enough in positions at the same work place, hobby group etc.), they might become friends even if the first impressions are really bad.

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As far as "people can't tell these two apart", you said in the previous message that they "do" know I "don't care enough" -- and in fact thats what turns them off. But in the quote right now you are saying they "don't" know its not on purpose. So are you saying its possible "not to care enough" in a way that it is still "on purpose"? Maybe by "on purpose" you mean something different than what I mean?


I don't follow. What part do you mean?

Not caring enough is on purpose. As in, if one knows that they look messy, yet decide to not do anything about it, then that's looking messy on purpose. They knew, yet decided to not do anything about it. If one doesn't notice they look messy, then that's not on purpose. Same if one does notice and tries to do something about it, like with hair, but fails because they have to leave before they're ready in order to catch the bus or something.

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As far as "being rude on purpose", what would be my motivation? I mean there is a motivation to be rude towards someone in particular, if that person made me mad or something. But by being messy I am not rude at anyone in particular. Rather I am rude towards general public. So what would be my supposed motivation if that was the case?


Dunno, I've never thought about it. Maybe a person who doesn't respect such a social etiquette is seen as someone who thinks they're above such rules? Or maybe for the sake of attention? Just guesses.

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Now, the reason I didn't get upset over it is that it was one isolated incident. But then after 35 it was no longer isolated incident. It was a pattern. So thats why I get so angry about it, since they think I am homeless or on drugs and I never saw myself that way.

I guess I could fix this by being more neat. But I can't fix my age, so I wish I could do it earlier.


When something like that is one separate incident, it could mean anything. When it's a pattern, it's likely that the people are on to something. So yeah, try to do something about your appearance.

Quote:
As far as "enough successful small talk", that depends on whether she would be starting conversations with me. She did back then. Which makes me feel that she would have continued if only I didn't do that small talk error. But I did. So maybe she wouldn't be starting conversation with me because of that error. And I would have to go through all those burdens starting conversations just because of this.


No it doesn't; you can start a conversation too. Besides, as I've told you before, building a friendship needs effort from both sides. If she keeps starting conversations with you, yet you never return the favor so to speak, she could deduce that you're only answering because it's polite to do so but that you're not actually interested in talking to her.

Quote:
But then again if I deal directly then I would create a brand new problem: namely she would see that I am the kind of person that doesn't let go of things, to the point of analyzing them two weeks later. So if she prefers someone easy going that would make her not want to talk to me. That, plus brining it up won't help me much anyway. Because my part of my intention would be to ask her what would she have said if I didn't walk away (in order to get back to that conversation that felt so smooth), but she probably won't remember what she would have said.

So I am not sure whether I will bring it up or not. I will see based on the dynamics of our conversation.


Well, if you do decide to bring it up, then I suppose a good halfway point would be to ask her if she remembers, and if she doesn't, then you drop that and change the subject, not bringing it up again. That way, while you'll probably still look like someone who won't let go of things all that easily, it probably won't feel like you'd be pressuring her too much.

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I tend to do this to everyone, not just the people I dislike. One thing that comes to mind is that when people wave I don't always know if they wave at me or not. When they smile, even if I know they smile at me, I don't know whether they want to start a small talk. So those are the examples when I might ignore them. Do you think is enough for people to see me as rude?


Oh yeah, I got in a lot of trouble with my peers as a teenager for simply not realizing that it was me they were calling "hey!" to on the way to the school building... what I still don't understand is why didn't they add my name after the "hey" after the first time that I didn't realize they were calling out to me... or if they forgot my name, which I suppose is possible, they could've used the nickname they tended to use for me.

But when people smile at you, I don't think it's any harm to smile back, even if it turns out it wasn't at you after all. Or are you one of the people who can't force a smile on with willpower? I had a similiar problem in junior high; while I was able to bring a smile out on order if needed, I couldn't keep it on my face. It just slipped off.

For some people, probably. And they might see you as rude on that moment, even if they don't conclude from it that you're a rude person in general.

Quote:
I think I might be choosing wrong words to communicate what I am trying to say. I was not talking about views or beliefs. Rather I was talking about lifestyle. As in, someone with miniskirt would go to bars and drink a lot, while someone dressed the way the other girl did would spend time at the libraries. Of course those are not true assumptions to make. But if that was true, then these two girls wouldn't be friends with each other.


Alright, a miscommunication, then. The word "morals" threw me in that direction.

Anyway, those are stereotypes. It's true that a stereotypical party girl and a bookworm probably wouldn't be friends, but life isn't as simple as that. For example, the way my little sister dresses is a lot closer to "party girl" than "bookworm", yet before the pandemic got bad, she spent time both partying and in the libraries of her university. One can be both a party girl and a bookworm. Plus, if two people have things in common as children, they might remain friends as adults even if their interests are very different at that point. Or two very different people, like these two we're talking about here, could find enough common ground to become friends if they have to spend time together, like as coworkers.



Fnord
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07 Jan 2022, 11:53 am

QFT wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Your over-analysis is your Achilles Heel.  But if girl doesn’t mind it: cool.
The question is: how would the girl know that I overanalyze, unless I do it out loud?
When she asks you a "dangerous" question and you take too long to answer.  Examples:

• "Does this make me look fat?"

• "Do you think my sister/cousin/friend is pretty?"

• "Do you like weddings/children?"



QFT
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07 Jan 2022, 1:02 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s nice that you were given a ride. Many people outside urban areas readily give rides to people.


Clarification: He is not talking about these two girls. He is talking about the girl discussed in a different thread, viewtopic.php?t=402947

In any case, as far as rides, yes I remember it back in Mississippi. But as far as offering a phone number, that was the first one. Does it happen in small towns?

I guess the closest thing I remember is that a taxi driver would give me a phone number since other taxis aren't readily available. But in their case they gave me a phone number "to stay in touch" (while the idea of more rides wasn't even mentioned). So how would you interpret this?

Is it common among people in small villages to readily exchange phone numbers?



QFT
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07 Jan 2022, 1:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Your over-analysis is your Achilles Heel.  But if girl doesn’t mind it: cool.
The question is: how would the girl know that I overanalyze, unless I do it out loud?
When she asks you a "dangerous" question and you take too long to answer.  Examples:

• "Does this make me look fat?"

• "Do you think my sister/cousin/friend is pretty?"

• "Do you like weddings/children?"


My interaction never even gets to the point where those questions are asked. But one thing I am hesitating about is whether girls smile is an invitation to start a conversation. In most cases I decide to act as if its a no. But at the same time I keep regretting it so I would look at the girl and then look away back and forth in order to "make sure". Is this the same kind of concept as what you talked about? As in I get undecided and the girl can see that?

I don't think Kraftie was talking about undecidedness though. I think he is talking about my long posts here in Wrongplanet Hence the question as to how would the girl know it.



kraftiekortie
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07 Jan 2022, 5:32 pm

It’s the constant questioning. Not the long posts.



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07 Jan 2022, 6:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s the constant questioning. Not the long posts.


Which is precisely why I keep asking how can they guess what is in my mind. If I keep questioning things in my mind and here on WrongPlanet, how do the girls know it?



kraftiekortie
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07 Jan 2022, 6:44 pm

If you ask many questions when you’re getting to know somebody, that somebody may feel like you’re too nosy, or that you’re not a pleasant person to hang out with.



QFT
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07 Jan 2022, 9:02 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
If you ask many questions when you’re getting to know somebody, that somebody may feel like you’re too nosy, or that you’re not a pleasant person to hang out with.


Then I was misunderstanding you all along. Because I thought by "overanalyzing" you mean the type of things I am focusing on Wrongplanet. And on Wrongplanet I was hardly asking others questions about themselves. I was mostly overanalyzing my own social failings.

In any case, the typical feedback that I am getting from people *outside* Wrongplanet is that I am too self-focused, as in I talk about myself too much and ask others about themselves too little. So from that point of view I should ask *more* questions (in order to show interest in things other than myself). But from what you are saying I should ask *less*.

But then again I remember *one* person who gave me advise similar to you. It was the J. guy at the Bible studies (who is not there any more, he graduated). He told me I ask people "direct questions" which puts them off. And that, too, made me wonder whether he "contradicted" everyone else who says that I talk about myself too much.

The other person that contradicts what everyone else is saying -- also in Bible studies -- is N. girl: she told me that I talk about myself *too little* and I appear closed off. While everyone *other than her* are telling me I talk about myself too much.

Could it be that the way I come across at the Bible studies is the "opposite" to how I come across everywhere else? Because at Bible studies I ask too many questions about others (J-guy) and talk too little about myself (N-girl). But everywhere else I talk about myself too much and talk about others too little (pretty much everyone else who ever gave me a feedback).

It is interesting though that you seem to be in agreement with Bible study people, even though Wrongplanet is one of the prime examples of where I talk about myself too much and about others too little.

Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by questions?