Verdict returned in Rittenhouse trial

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Pepe
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05 Dec 2021, 9:53 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him.


Grosskreutz did not articulate his actions accurately in court but the events seem to transpired so quickly that both Grosskreutz and Rittenhouse decided that each one was a threat.

Rittenhouse reloading his chamber gives some insight into his mindset but its irrelevant now as there is no double jeopardy in US law so even if it transpires he wanted to kill, the time has now passed.


Rittenhouse was acquitted.
Ner, ner, ner ner, ner. :mrgreen:



cyberdad
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05 Dec 2021, 10:00 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him.


Grosskreutz did not articulate his actions accurately in court but the events seem to transpired so quickly that both Grosskreutz and Rittenhouse decided that each one was a threat.

Rittenhouse reloading his chamber gives some insight into his mindset but its irrelevant now as there is no double jeopardy in US law so even if it transpires he wanted to kill, the time has now passed.


Rittenhouse was acquitted.
Ner, ner, ner ner, ner. :mrgreen:


Zimmerman, Sandman and now Rittenhouse....my expectation of US law diminishes with each case



Pepe
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05 Dec 2021, 10:04 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, I am not saying anything about double jeopardy. What I mean is, since the video shows what it shows, what does Grosskreutz's credibility matter, at all, when you can just go by the video? People say Grosskreutz's testimony hurt the case, but how did he when the video overrides anything he says is what I mean?

Shouldn't the jurors go by the video and disregard anything he says or did after the fact?


Actual evidence is highly valued, or so it should be. 8)

As I've said before, Grosskreutz's testimony is essentially irrelevant, imo.



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05 Dec 2021, 10:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him.


Grosskreutz did not articulate his actions accurately in court but the events seem to transpired so quickly that both Grosskreutz and Rittenhouse decided that each one was a threat.

Rittenhouse reloading his chamber gives some insight into his mindset but its irrelevant now as there is no double jeopardy in US law so even if it transpires he wanted to kill, the time has now passed.


Rittenhouse was acquitted.
Ner, ner, ner ner, ner. :mrgreen:


Zimmerman, Sandman and now Rittenhouse....my expectation of US law diminishes with each case


It is clear you have a hyperpartisan mindset that isn't working for you.
Perhaps you should jump ship, or become, err, objective? :scratch:
I suggest the latter. 8)



Pepe
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05 Dec 2021, 10:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, I am not saying anything about double jeopardy. What I mean is, since the video shows what it shows, what does Grosskreutz's credibility matter, at all, when you can just go by the video? People say Grosskreutz's testimony hurt the case, but how did he when the video overrides anything he says is what I mean?

Shouldn't the jurors go by the video and disregard anything he says or did after the fact?


Rittenhouse and his victims were very close to each other when the shootings occured so the videos were not clear enough and needed some licence to be interpreted. This fed into the lack of evidence and reasonable doubt for the jury.

Rittenhouse was lucky in that the drone footage showing him provoking the crowd right at the beginning was too granular to show that he pointed his gun at the crowd.


Oh, Magoo, if the "evidence" was "too granular" to the point nothing could be established, it was too granular to the point nothing could be established.

Nothing has been established that I am aware of.
If you have actual evidence supporting your *belief*, please present it. 8)

Belief + evidence comprehensively supporting that belief = fact. 8)

Let it go.
Your obvious bias has no place in an objective discussion. 8)



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05 Dec 2021, 10:27 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him.


Grosskreutz did not articulate his actions accurately in court but the events seem to transpired so quickly that both Grosskreutz and Rittenhouse decided that each one was a threat.

Rittenhouse reloading his chamber gives some insight into his mindset but its irrelevant now as there is no double jeopardy in US law so even if it transpires he wanted to kill, the time has now passed.


Rittenhouse was acquitted.
Ner, ner, ner ner, ner. :mrgreen:


Zimmerman, Sandman and now Rittenhouse....my expectation of US law diminishes with each case


It is clear you have a hyperpartisan mindset that isn't working for you.
Perhaps you should jump ship, or become, err, objective? :scratch:
I suggest the latter. 8)




Dox47
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05 Dec 2021, 10:33 pm

ironpony wrote:
But even if he ommitted this intentionally, the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him. So doesn't the video still supports his state of mind at the time accurately, regardless if him leaving the something out later for a lawsuit?


He didn't cycle the action, he had a slight malfunction, the bolt didn't fully close after he shot Huber, and he used the forward assist to close the breach. Doesn't really speak to his intentions toward Grosskruetz, as clearing a malfunction is a pretty natural thing to do in that situation.


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Pepe
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05 Dec 2021, 10:42 pm

Dox47 wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But even if he ommitted this intentionally, the video still shows him put his hands up, and then Rittenhouse wracks the next round into the chamber. This indicates that Rittenhouse did not accept his surrender like he said and that Rittenhouse was getting the next round ready which provoked Grosskreutz into attacking him. So doesn't the video still supports his state of mind at the time accurately, regardless if him leaving the something out later for a lawsuit?


He didn't cycle the action, he had a slight malfunction, the bolt didn't fully close after he shot Huber, and he used the forward assist to close the breach. Doesn't really speak to his intentions toward Grosskruetz, as clearing a malfunction is a pretty natural thing to do in that situation.


Not a good advert for the AR-15. 8O



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05 Dec 2021, 10:46 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, I am not saying anything about double jeopardy. What I mean is, since the video shows what it shows, what does Grosskreutz's credibility matter, at all, when you can just go by the video? People say Grosskreutz's testimony hurt the case, but how did he when the video overrides anything he says is what I mean?

Shouldn't the jurors go by the video and disregard anything he says or did after the fact?

If there was something which wasn't covered by the footage very well, the testimony of a person involved would matter.

In this case, for example, the reason for Mr Grosskreutz's actions (from his having run alongside Mr Rittenhouse asking questions, to the point where he is shot): If he was willing to hide (lie by omission) the fact he was holding a gun and pointing it at someone when they shot him, (making it appear that he had done nothing to potentially contribute to what occurred to anyone who was reliant upon his word in the civil cases), along with his statement that he "didn't know" if the verdict in the criminal case where he was then testifying would have an impact on his civil case related to the same matter, it could make the jury wonder what else he might be trying to hide.

Much like with the employees of the car shop(s) who claimed they hadn't asked anyone to protect their stores, whereas a number of other witnesses claimed that they had (coupled with the SMS to one of the owners asking where they were wanted (from memory), and the photographs of some of those who were there with one of those employees... And the fact of those employees, one didn't work at the sites in this city, and the other was the "inventory manager", yet was unable to answer questions about the store's inventory of vehicles) - The jury sometimes has to take multiple conflicting stories and determine which is more reliable, basing it on how they evaluate the honesty of those who provided the information.



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06 Dec 2021, 12:06 am

Brictoria wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, I am not saying anything about double jeopardy. What I mean is, since the video shows what it shows, what does Grosskreutz's credibility matter, at all, when you can just go by the video? People say Grosskreutz's testimony hurt the case, but how did he when the video overrides anything he says is what I mean?

Shouldn't the jurors go by the video and disregard anything he says or did after the fact?

If there was something which wasn't covered by the footage very well, the testimony of a person involved would matter.

In this case, for example, the reason for Mr Grosskreutz's actions (from his having run alongside Mr Rittenhouse asking questions, to the point where he is shot): If he was willing to hide (lie by omission) the fact he was holding a gun and pointing it at someone when they shot him, (making it appear that he had done nothing to potentially contribute to what occurred to anyone who was reliant upon his word in the civil cases), along with his statement that he "didn't know" if the verdict in the criminal case where he was then testifying would have an impact on his civil case related to the same matter, it could make the jury wonder what else he might be trying to hide.

Much like with the employees of the car shop(s) who claimed they hadn't asked anyone to protect their stores, whereas a number of other witnesses claimed that they had (coupled with the SMS to one of the owners asking where they were wanted (from memory), and the photographs of some of those who were there with one of those employees... And the fact of those employees, one didn't work at the sites in this city, and the other was the "inventory manager", yet was unable to answer questions about the store's inventory of vehicles) - The jury sometimes has to take multiple conflicting stories and determine which is more reliable, basing it on how they evaluate the honesty of those who provided the information.


Oh okay I see what you mean, yes. Would it have been better if the prosecution had chose not to put Grosskreutz on the stand, or would that have looked too suspicious not to?



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06 Dec 2021, 12:14 am

Pepe wrote:
Not a good advert for the AR-15. 8O


Eh, probably more a function of lazy gun ownership, ARs like to be clean, wet, or both, and I believe that one was also relatively new and not broken in, so the springs might still have been a little stiff. ARs got a bad rap for reliability back in the day because the military adopted them during Vietnam and made some changes to the original gun and ammo that didn't play well with the climate there and told the troops they didn't need to be cleaned, which led to jamming issues until they reformulated the ammo (it was hydroscopic and sucked moisture out of the air) and taught the troops to clean the guns properly. Modern ARs aren't nearly so finicky as long as you keep them lubed up, mine are short barreled and suppressed, which is a worst case scenario for cleaning as there's a ton of unburned powder due to the short barrel and the silencer increases the back pressure that pushes more of the gunk back into the gun, but they run fine as long as I keep them well lubed, 60 years of tinkering have really perfected the AR15 design.

Interesting note, the designer of the AR15, Eugene Stoner, strongly objected to the addition of the forward assist (think of it as a button you can use to force the bolt closed) on the idea that it tended to make problems worse by forcing jammed rounds into the gun, and "slick side" ARs without the FA have become somewhat trendy, but now people are rethinking that in light of the video of Rittenouse actually using one to clear a malfunction under stress.


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06 Dec 2021, 12:21 am

One thing I noticed about the video footage is that after Grosskreutz is shot, he runs away and three people come to give him medical attention and at least two of them also have AR-15 looking rifles, if not the third one as well from what I can tell.

So why do people pick on Kyle for having when it seems like a case of 'everybody's doing it' or at least a good portion of people. Why does he stick out as the bad guy therefore...



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06 Dec 2021, 12:24 am

He was acquitted…..he wasn’t seen as being the “bad guy” by a jury of his peers.

All those armed people shouldn’t have been there armed. It was a ridiculous situation, filled with “playing war.”



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06 Dec 2021, 1:16 am

ironpony wrote:

So why do people pick on Kyle for having when it seems like a case of 'everybody's doing it' or at least a good portion of people. Why does he stick out as the bad guy therefore...


I honestly think it is as simple as him being the one who actually fired the weapon, with two now dead.

When bad things happen, people seem to need someone to blame. It’s an emotional thing.


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06 Dec 2021, 1:27 am

ironpony wrote:
So why do people pick on Kyle for having when it seems like a case of 'everybody's doing it' or at least a good portion of people. Why does he stick out as the bad guy therefore...


Because Kyle was the one doing the shooting. However much you paint Grosskreutz as the aggressor he never once fired his gun,.



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06 Dec 2021, 2:29 am

Oh I still thought Grosskreutz was the agressor when he came after Kyle with a gun and followed him, as opposed to not doing anything at all, and just leave him be or at least not come after him.