Mass Shooting in Michigan High School

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demeus
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12 Dec 2021, 7:16 am

cyberdad wrote:
If you take a step back and remove people's easy access to guns in the first place then these things would never happen.


Besides having to lock your guns whenever there is someone under 18 in your should (and that will be hard to enforce before the fact), what laws should be passed to remove easy access that have not already been passed and that do not infringe on the 2nd Amendment (because that is never going away considering you will easily find 13 states that will never pass such the amendment to get rid of it). Ethan was not allowed to own the gun he used. His father bought it in his name and let him use it. That is why the parents are sitting in the county bed and breakfast right now.

Even in other cases, the CT shooter killed his mother for access to the gun safe. So much for locking up guns. At Columbine, if Harris and Kiebold did not have guns, they would have made sure their bombs worked and there would have been more than 13 dead. Even in countries with strict gun control, people still kill. England is looking to ban knives now because that is the primary weapon of criminals.



TheRobotLives
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12 Dec 2021, 10:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
If you take a step back and remove people's easy access to guns in the first place then these things would never happen.

I feel like most people are too dumb and emotional to have guns.


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Dox47
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12 Dec 2021, 10:43 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
I feel like most people are too dumb and emotional to have guns.


Most of the times I hear that opinion, the people venturing it are projecting and have never actually owned a gun.


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cyberdad
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12 Dec 2021, 3:41 pm

demeus wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If you take a step back and remove people's easy access to guns in the first place then these things would never happen.


Besides having to lock your guns whenever there is someone under 18 in your should (and that will be hard to enforce before the fact), what laws should be passed to remove easy access that have not already been passed and that do not infringe on the 2nd Amendment (because that is never going away considering you will easily find 13 states that will never pass such the amendment to get rid of it). Ethan was not allowed to own the gun he used. His father bought it in his name and let him use it. That is why the parents are sitting in the county bed and breakfast right now.

Even in other cases, the CT shooter killed his mother for access to the gun safe. So much for locking up guns. At Columbine, if Harris and Kiebold did not have guns, they would have made sure their bombs worked and there would have been more than 13 dead. Even in countries with strict gun control, people still kill. England is looking to ban knives now because that is the primary weapon of criminals.


I think even with the 2nd amendment, the bare minimum is restriction for < 18 (or even 21) to access guns., I cannot see the benefit for a society that permits kids (however responsible) to play with guns.

I think police should do random audits of households that are registered gun owners to do spot checks to see if the guns are properly locked in a secure cabinet away from "little hands",



DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 7:14 pm

Dox47 wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
I feel like most people are too dumb and emotional to have guns.


Most of the times I hear that opinion, the people venturing it are projecting and have never actually owned a gun.


If they are projecting, ie worry they are too “dumb” themselves to own a gun. then we should be grateful they’ve never owned one.

Being a responsible gun owner does take some effort. Thinking one can neglect their way through it would be quite dumb, if I’ve understood the care correctly. I don’t like having to count on me remembering proper maintenance and care of objects, so I think the world is better off with me not trying to keep a gun in my house.

Yes, I do project that neglectfulness onto others; life gives me plenty of examples and reasons to.


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Dox47
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12 Dec 2021, 10:25 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
If they are projecting, ie worry they are too “dumb” themselves to own a gun. then we should be grateful they’ve never owned one.


I was mostly referring to the emotional part, it's a cliche of left wing anti gun arguments, that people will be killing each other in the streets over petty disputes if law X is or isn't passed, usually made by people who have no idea what owning and carrying a gun is actually like. It's such a trope that we call it the Wild West argument, it's right up there with "you must have a small penis" and "why do you want children to die?" in the pantheon of things we expect to hear when arguing about guns online.


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12 Dec 2021, 11:52 pm

Dox47 wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
If they are projecting, ie worry they are too “dumb” themselves to own a gun. then we should be grateful they’ve never owned one.


I was mostly referring to the emotional part, it's a cliche of left wing anti gun arguments, that people will be killing each other in the streets over petty disputes

In the news today, a Tic-Tok star walked into a room his wife and another man together, overcome with emotion, shot and killed both.
https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-new ... from-jail/


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Dox47
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13 Dec 2021, 12:04 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
In the news today, a Tic-Tok star walked into a room his wife and another man together, overcome with emotion, shot and killed both.
https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-new ... from-jail/


Did you read your own link? Dude installed a listening device in the apartment his estranged wife was living in, heard another man on it, and drove across town to confront them, this wasn't strangers blasting away at each other in public over parking spaces. Also, this was in California, where they have all the gun control progressives claim would prevent this kind of thing from happening.


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cyberdad
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13 Dec 2021, 12:27 am

Tik Tok full of horror stories,

Saw an irate Karen take out multiple people at a gas station. Another one arguing over parking during christmas. Seems like what should be resolved using words, these idiots are resorting to weapons.



uncommondenominator
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13 Dec 2021, 2:09 am

I've owned firearms for over 20 years. I've been around firearms for over 35 years. I build and customize my own firearms. I actively concealed carry.

Many people simply don't have the proper training or experience.

Many people don't take it seriously enough, and allow themselves to be careless.

If you're going to own something dangerous, you should do both of the above. If you carry a knife to protect yourself, but you have NO idea how to wield it, you're probably more likely to stab your own dumb ass, or get it taken from you and they'll stab you with it. Even trained LEO's have little better than 50% hit rate in real world high stress situations with a firearm. If you're gonna own it, learn at least the bare basics.

People that own firearms, and don't bother to learn about them, practice with them, and take them seriously, are, if not stupid, then at least dangerous.

There's no shortage of videos and stories of muppets with guns who accidentally shoot themselves, their wives, their friends, their neighbor's dog, while doing things as mundane as cleaning it or holstering it.

It's like someone who's literally never driven a car, owning a car. Sure, as long as the car (firearm) just sits there unused and untouched, nothing bad really happens. But as soon as the owner puts their hands on it and tries to operate it in any manner, things can go very poorly very quickly for the inexperienced.





And hey, you remember that adorable family photo with the little girl with the uzi?
Here's a little girl learning to shoot a mini uzi. This guy was a trained professional. What could possibly go wrong?



Firearms are serious sh*t, and people really should take them more seriously.. Even professionals f**k up sometimes. When the ignorant or the untrained get their hands on them and muck about beyond their capability unattended, things can get worse in a hurry.

And this is just the accidental stuff. Then there's the people intentionally using guns inappropriately. Pulling guns over masks, pulling guns over salty fries, pulling guns over parking spaces, pulling guns for any reasons other than "my life is in danger". Situations where they're not even in danger. Just brandishing it like a macho movie hero, so people know they're a badass.

Guns, swords, knives, power tools, explosives, fixing the brakes on your car; there are some things you really shouldn't just "dive into" and figure it out as you go. I've known dozens of "learned it muhself" types who also have fewer than 10 fingers, fewer than 10 toes, fewer than 2 eyes - cos sometimes the "lesson" you end up teaching yourself is "don't do it that way, you lose a finger".

I have had exactly ONE accidental firearm discharge in my life, and it was an intentional trigger pull, in a safe direction, but with a blank instead of a snap-cap. I have had far too many people point muzzles at my face without realizing it, while simply inspecting their firearm. I had one muppet at my local army/navy dry fire a pistol while it was inadvertently pointed directly at my face, right before he handed to the LEO he was showing it to. He was thankfully gone the next day. The owners did not put up with stuff like that.

Rednecks and idiots out in the woods might get a giggle from things like accidental discharges, or giving weapons to people who've never held them and watching them struggle and screw up, but watch how fast a drill instructor snatches a firearm from a dummy in training who flags the firing line with a hot rifle.

I take this stuff very seriously, as someone who is involved with firearms.



Dox47
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13 Dec 2021, 2:55 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
And this is just the accidental stuff. Then there's the people intentionally using guns inappropriately. Pulling guns over masks, pulling guns over salty fries, pulling guns over parking spaces, pulling guns for any reasons other than "my life is in danger". Situations where they're not even in danger. Just brandishing it like a macho movie hero, so people know they're a badass.


Not saying that doesn't happen, but how often does that sort of thing involved legal carriers? I've been studying this stuff a long time and had my carry license since 30 business days past my 21st birthday, and last I checked, legal carriers are more law abiding than the cops, low a bar as that may be, and the vast majority of bad gun behavior is committed by people who can't legally own them.


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cyberdad
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13 Dec 2021, 3:38 am

I'm not saying responsible certified adults gun owners can't hold a licence, But when you come across bimbos on tik tok who spend their days filming their ass for $$ and then try and flex with their private weapons collection then you know there's a massive cultural chasm between the rest of the English speaking world and the USA.



Dox47
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13 Dec 2021, 4:15 am

cyberdad wrote:
I'm not saying responsible certified adults gun owners can't hold a licence, But when you come across bimbos on tik tok who spend their days filming their ass for $$ and then try and flex with their private weapons collection then you know there's a massive cultural chasm between the rest of the English speaking world and the USA.


Why would we care what the rest of the world thinks? Especially the English speaking world, we don't even have any near peers there.


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uncommondenominator
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13 Dec 2021, 6:32 pm

Dox47 wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
And this is just the accidental stuff. Then there's the people intentionally using guns inappropriately. Pulling guns over masks, pulling guns over salty fries, pulling guns over parking spaces, pulling guns for any reasons other than "my life is in danger". Situations where they're not even in danger. Just brandishing it like a macho movie hero, so people know they're a badass.


Not saying that doesn't happen, but how often does that sort of thing involved legal carriers? I've been studying this stuff a long time and had my carry license since 30 business days past my 21st birthday, and last I checked, legal carriers are more law abiding than the cops, low a bar as that may be, and the vast majority of bad gun behavior is committed by people who can't legally own them.


Since you were 21 eh? That'd be more meaningful if we knew your age. Or you could have just said "I've had one for over a year", or however long you've had it. That too would have been helpful. How long have you been carrying? How often do you carry? What do you carry? How do you carry? How often do you practice? How many rounds have you put through your carry pistol? Do you actively carry, or do you just "have the license"?

When it comes to firearms, it is at least partially accurate that police may be more prone to misuse of firearms - and there's a reason for that, which also explains the rest. Since police ARE properly trained with a firearm, it can't be lack of training, or ignorance of the law. Perhaps it's related to an emotional reaction? More on that in a moment.

There's a concept called Moral Hazard - it's the idea that when you mitigate the risks involved with a certain behavior, people may become more willing to engage in that behavior, due to the reduced risk. So lets look at those three categories you mentioned: Police, legal gun owners, people who aren't allowed to have guns.

People who aren't allowed to have guns, first of all, are going to have the hardest time getting a gun, and whatever gun they get is probably going to be more expensive, or a piece of crap. Then there's the major risk - if they're not supposed to have a gun, there's significant risk in just possessing the firearm, at all. The last thing they'd want is for the whole neighborhood to know they have a gun, let alone pull it out for stupid reasons so even johnny law knows they have a gun now. You keep that sh!t hidden. Lest the 5.0 come take it, and you too for having it - or someone else steal it from you, and you can't do sh!t, cos you're not supposed to have it, so what are you going to do, call the cops and report a stolen gun that you're not even supposed to have?

And that's aside from the obvious-statement-is-obvious aspect of the fact that, if you're not supposed to have a gun, then simply having a gun is "bad gun behavior", so by definition, by simply having guns, people who aren't supposed to have guns, but do, are going to have the highest rate of "bad gun behavior", simply by owning one when they're not supposed to - as such, by that metric, 100% of people who have guns and aren't supposed to, are exhibiting "bad gun behavior", simply by having a gun when they're not supposed to.

Lawful gun owners have the comfort of being a LAWFUL gun owner. That provides them with that sense of security. They FEEL like the law is on THEIR side. THEY're a law abiding citizen! But they don't actually know the laws. They don't fully understand the risks. They're more willing to pull it out, cos they're more likely to think they're the GOOD guy, not the BAD guy. They inaccurately assume that the law will always be on their side.

A frightening number of gun owners I speak with or am around practically wish and look for situations in which they would get to "lawfully defend themselves". They are eager to try out their new toys, and looking for an excuse to justify it. People feel safer if they know they have a gun, and are more likely to be more bold than they might otherwise be. Escalate a situation rather than diffuse it. Cos they're safe! They've got a gun! Second Amendment! Self defense!

Like this guy
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/f ... t-walmart/

Umbrella guy shouldn't have pointed with the umbrella, but that still doesn't mean you pull a gun in response.


Police have even greater protections. Not only that, they ARE the law! And they're still human, with human flaws and human emotions. All the training in the world, and they still make indiscretions. So maybe it is emotional. Many times they've taken off their uniform, but still wanna play cop, or forget they're not actually on duty. They have a lot of extra leeway when it comes to the (lack of) consequences related to shooting people, compared to the average civilian. So there's less consequence to being careless, so they're more prone to being careless. "I'm a cop! I know what I'm doing!" Famous last words. Sometimes they mean well, but it's still the wrong move. Other times they are actually just taking advantage. Because they can.

The more a person inherently feels "safe" to draw a gun, the more likely they are to do it. It's not a guaranteed thing, but it is a "more likely" thing. Sometimes consequences really are the only thing preventing some people from engaging in some behaviors. Think of all the memes and comments about how it's unfortunate that it's illegal to kill certain type of people - stupid, lazy, etc. Lotta angry people out there looking for someone to take it out on. And the more likely they think they can get away with it, the more likely they are to do it.

And for better or worse, some gun owners do only buy a gun to make their c*ck feel bigger. Not literally, necessarily, but they're insecure, don't feel in control, and having a gun gives them a feeling of power and security. And as a result, you get people drawing guns just to make the point of "don't mess with me!" - because a gun is only a deterrent of they know you have one, and know you're willing to use it.

Too many people that have guns are too eager to use them on other people who they feel "deserve" it. People who would shoot someone to "teach them a lesson" or w/e. Cowards that want to pull a gun any time they "feel threatened", but EVERYTHING makes them "feel threatened". Try-hards that feel safer now that they have a gat, and end up acting more bold as a result, thinking they'll just "self defense!" if things go south, and are more willing to antagonize and escalate up to that point as a result. The naive who think it's ok to pull a gun to settle things down or assert control, like The Duke ending a barfight on behalf of the bartender with a few warning shots fired into the air, or any other movie where the hero pulls a gun to let the offenders in question know who's boss.

Firearms are not something to treat lightly. But far too many people do. And like a bratty kid, the fewer the consequences, the more likely they are to keep doing it.



cyberdad
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13 Dec 2021, 11:36 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
Escalate a situation rather than diffuse it. Cos they're safe! They've got a gun! Second Amendment! Self defense!

Like this guy
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/f ... t-walmart/

Umbrella guy shouldn't have pointed with the umbrella, but that still doesn't mean you pull a gun in response.

.


There are literally thousands of these on the internet.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/20 ... water.html



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13 Dec 2021, 11:37 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Why would we care what the rest of the world thinks?


That's the most quintessentially American thing I've ever heard an American say on this forum :lol: