Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Why do some women think there is a wage gap?

Page 3 of 5 [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

03 Dec 2021, 4:12 pm

Oh well when my friends say it's a problem they say 'wage gap policy'.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,836
Location: Stendec

03 Dec 2021, 4:14 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh well when my friends say it's a problem they say 'wage gap policy'.
Obviously, your friends do not know what they are talking about.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Dec 2021, 4:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
For example: A written wage policy may state that a "Tech III" position is worth "$21.37 to $37.21 per hour".  After 12 years, a male "Tech III" may be earning the full $37.21 per hour wage, while a female "Tech III" may only be earning $26.05; the female's wages are 70% of the male's wages, due to the factors I mentioned earlier.


Okay now we are getting a lot closer.

I guess, as a grad student, the policy states the exact salary grad students get paid for teaching, it doesn't state a range. But I never had any other job besides this. So I assumed with other jobs its the same. But now you just told me something new that there are jobs where they actually give ranges rather than exact number. If so, that would pretty much answer the question.

Although I don't get why are they giving ranges? It seems unfair since that gives a room for the boss to pay more to whom they like and less to whom they don't like.



hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,743
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

03 Dec 2021, 4:49 pm

It's supposed to be based on your experience. As you get more experience in the role you are given more money.

No one wants a job with no growth potential. It's nice to feel appreciated.

Having the range also stops people job hopping. If they are stuck on £21,000 with no increase in sight they will leave for a job that pays more. Of you pay them more, they will stay.



hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,743
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

03 Dec 2021, 4:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Doesn't exist in government or Universities.


I know that press haven't been reporting accurately on the current strike in the UK and I guess this won't have reached Australia, but sadly no, that is not correct.

UK universities strike

The press are only reporting the pensions row and lumping the blame solely on lecturers. Lots of different people work in universities and they are also striking. I had to turn the radio off because it was so skewed, but the strike is partly about demanding equal pay for women and ethnic minorities. Part of the issue is the amount of contract work researchers need to do, rather than having stable permanent contracts.



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Dec 2021, 4:58 pm

hurtloam wrote:
It's supposed to be based on your experience. As you get more experience in the role you are given more money.

No one wants a job with no growth potential. It's nice to feel appreciated.

Having the range also stops people job hopping. If they are stuck on £21,000 with no increase in sight they will leave for a job that pays more. Of you pay them more, they will stay.


The way I understood is that as you become more experienced you get promoted. If so, that would work with exact numbers too. The exact salary for the lower level job you start off with is smaller than the exact salary for higher level job you get promoted to.

The only reason they would need salary ranges is if they want to increase your salary *without* actual promotion. Does this ever happen though?



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,836
Location: Stendec

03 Dec 2021, 5:23 pm

QFT wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
It's supposed to be based on your experience. As you get more experience in the role you are given more money.  No one wants a job with no growth potential. It's nice to feel appreciated.  Having the range also stops people job hopping. If they are stuck on £21,000 with no increase in sight they will leave for a job that pays more. Of you pay them more, they will stay.
The way I understood is that as you become more experienced you get promoted. If so, that would work with exact numbers too. The exact salary for the lower level job you start off with is smaller than the exact salary for higher level job you get promoted to.  The only reason they would need salary ranges is if they want to increase your salary *without* actual promotion.  Does this ever happen though?
Yes, it does.  Here is a hypothetical wage scale for that hypothetical "Tech III" position I mentioned before:

Code:
Grade:   Hours Worked:      Pay Range:
 1        0 to 2,000    $21.37 to $22.47
 2    2,001 to 4,000    $22.48 to $23.63
 3    4,001 to 6,000    $23.64 to $24.85
 4    6,001 to 8,000    $24.86 to $26.13
 5    8,001 to 10,000   $26.14 to $27.49
 6   10,001 to 12,000   $27.50 to $28.91
 7   12,001 to 14,000   $28.92 to $30.40
 8   14,001 to 16,000   $30.41 to $31.98
 9   16,001 to 18,000   $31.99 to $33.63
10   18,001 to 20,000   $33.64 to $35.37
11   20,001 to 22,000   $35.38 to $37.20
12   22,001 to 24,000   $37.21 to $39.12

For the sake of simplicity, assume the average work-year consists of 2,000 work hours, based on 50 five-day work-weeks of eight hours per day.

Increases in pay are calculated based on actual hours worked, and not on years of employment.  Men are more likely to report for work even when they, their spouses, or their children are sick; while women are more likely to stay home and care for themselves and their sick children.  Thus, in any given year, men show up for work and put in full 8-hour days more often than women, without needing to leave early to pick up their kids or take days off for medical needs or to attend parent-teacher conferences.

[NOTE: This is not the way things should be.  Blame the Patriarchy and its reliance on "traditional" roles for men and women.]

By the time a man has worked 12,001 total hours -- thus rising to pay grade 12 -- a woman may have worked only 8401 total hours -- thus rising only to pay grade 5. The man now earns $37.34 per hour, and the woman only $26.14 per hour.

The woman earns 70% of what the man earns because she has worked only 70% of the hours that the man has worked.

Again, there is no "Wage-Gap Policy"; but the way that wage scales are negotiated, a wage-gap occurs when one person works more hours than another person for the same number of years.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

03 Dec 2021, 5:34 pm

So in that example, women are paid less because they work less hours, but the pay is the same for both per hour then?



hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,743
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

03 Dec 2021, 5:35 pm

QFT wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
It's supposed to be based on your experience. As you get more experience in the role you are given more money.

No one wants a job with no growth potential. It's nice to feel appreciated.

Having the range also stops people job hopping. If they are stuck on £21,000 with no increase in sight they will leave for a job that pays more. Of you pay them more, they will stay.


The way I understood is that as you become more experienced you get promoted. If so, that would work with exact numbers too. The exact salary for the lower level job you start off with is smaller than the exact salary for higher level job you get promoted to.

The only reason they would need salary ranges is if they want to increase your salary *without* actual promotion. Does this ever happen though?


I don't want promoted. My bosses job is not my cup of tea at all. Plus he doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I can't get promoted.

Yes I got 2 salary increases over the past 2 years in my current job. I'm not at the top threshold of my paygrade yet, so may get another increase in time.

I also got salary increases in my last job.

Edit: just checked my contract. My pay is increased on automatically on 1st Aug each year unless there are any disciplinary procedures happening involving me. Seems like this employer isn't too bad with equality at my paygrade bearing in mind I have an open ended contract.

It's more likely to be those on short term contracts that get shafted. They won't get that yearly increase. Just another contact at starting salary.



Last edited by hurtloam on 03 Dec 2021, 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,836
Location: Stendec

03 Dec 2021, 5:36 pm

ironpony wrote:
So in that example, women are paid less because they work less hours, but the pay is the same for both per hour then?

:roll:

C'mon!  Nobody is THAT dense!  Re-read the example; it is all right there in front of you!



Last edited by Fnord on 03 Dec 2021, 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Dec 2021, 5:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
hurtloam wrote:
It's supposed to be based on your experience. As you get more experience in the role you are given more money.  No one wants a job with no growth potential. It's nice to feel appreciated.  Having the range also stops people job hopping. If they are stuck on £21,000 with no increase in sight they will leave for a job that pays more. Of you pay them more, they will stay.
The way I understood is that as you become more experienced you get promoted. If so, that would work with exact numbers too. The exact salary for the lower level job you start off with is smaller than the exact salary for higher level job you get promoted to.  The only reason they would need salary ranges is if they want to increase your salary *without* actual promotion.  Does this ever happen though?
Yes, it does.  Here is a hypothetical wage scale for that hypothetical "Tech III" position I mentioned before:

Code:
Grade:   Hours Worked:      Pay Range:
 1        0 to 2,000    $21.37 to $22.47
 2    2,001 to 4,000    $22.48 to $23.63
 3    4,001 to 6,000    $23.64 to $24.85
 4    6,001 to 8,000    $24.86 to $26.13
 5    8,001 to 10,000   $26.14 to $27.49
 6   10,001 to 12,000   $27.50 to $28.91
 7   12,001 to 14,000   $28.92 to $30.40
 8   14,001 to 16,000   $30.41 to $31.98
 9   16,001 to 18,000   $31.99 to $33.63
10   18,001 to 20,000   $33.64 to $35.37
11   20,001 to 22,000   $35.38 to $37.20
12   22,001 to 24,000   $37.21 to $39.12

For the sake of simplicity, assume the average work-year consists of 2,000 work hours, based on 50 five-day work-weeks of eight hours per day.

Increases in pay are calculated based on actual hours worked, and not on years of employment.  Men are more likely to report for work even when they, their spouses, or their children are sick; while women are more likely to stay home and care for themselves and their sick children.  Thus, in any given year, men show up for work and put in full 8-hour days more often than women, without needing to leave early to pick up their kids or take days off for medical needs or to attend parent-teacher conferences.

[NOTE: This is not the way things should be.  Blame the Patriarchy and its reliance on "traditional" roles for men and women.]

By the time a man has worked 12,001 total hours -- thus rising to pay grade 12 -- a woman may have worked only 8401 total hours -- thus rising only to pay grade 5. The man now earns $37.34 per hour, and the woman only $26.14 per hour.

The woman earns 70% of what the man earns because she has worked only 70% of the hours that the man has worked.

Again, there is no "Wage-Gap Policy"; but the way that wage scales are negotiated, a wage-gap occurs when one person works more hours than another person for the same number of years.


Okay good points. This leads to the following follow up questions:

1) In what you posted, they still have ranges. Why do they do it? Why not give exact salary for every exact number of hours accummulated? When they say that "for a amount of accummulted hours the salary range is between b and c" they give boss a freedom to give higher or lower salary to people that accummulated the same exact number of hours. That sounds unfair.

2) As far as "men put on more hours since they are less likely to stay at home when children are sick",

a) that doesn't seem to fit the category of "men get paid more for the same amount of work", since the amount of work won't be the same.

b) The issue to be addressed here would be "sexism at home" as opposed to "sexism at a workplace".



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,836
Location: Stendec

03 Dec 2021, 5:43 pm

Men get paid more for the same kind of work.

The "amount of work" refers to the same number of hours.  If two people put in the same number of hours, they will receive the same amount of pay.  If one person puts in 8401 hours, and another person puts in 12,001 hours, then the first person will earn less than the second person.

How much simpler does this have to be before the light goes on in your head?



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Dec 2021, 5:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
  If two people put in the same number of hours, they will receive the same amount of pay.  If one person puts in 8401 hours, and another person puts in 12,001 hours, then the first person will earn less than the second person.


Thats what I used to assume up until today. But today I learned that actually they have salary range rather than exact salary for any given number of hours. So if two people put on the same number of hours they can still get different pay upon the buss' whim. Which leads to the question: why do they put a range rather than the exact number?



hurtloam
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,743
Location: Eyjafjallajökull

03 Dec 2021, 5:50 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
  If two people put in the same number of hours, they will receive the same amount of pay.  If one person puts in 8401 hours, and another person puts in 12,001 hours, then the first person will earn less than the second person.


Thats what I used to assume up until today. But today I learned that actually they have salary range rather than exact salary for any given number of hours. So if two people put on the same number of hours they can still get different pay upon the buss' whim. Which leads to the question: why do they put a range rather than the exact number?


It depends on the company. If you're in a large organisation like I am you'll get your yearly increase automatically. If you're in a small company owned by a couple of people, they can decide whatever they like.

The range shows potential for earning more. You apply hoping you will earn more than the starting rate if you stay with that company.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,836
Location: Stendec

03 Dec 2021, 6:01 pm

QFT wrote:
... Why do they put a range rather than the exact number?
To allow supervisors to award such things as promptness, collateral duties, voluntary overtime, innovative suggestions, self-improvement (i.e., outside study and certification), and overall "team spirit".

For example, "Joan" shows up early, leaves late, always keeps her workspace neat and tidy, volunteers to train the newbies, and is working on completing all available Cisco certifications to supplement her Associates Degree from the local Community College.

"Robert", however, shows up on time, leaves on time (he is a real clock-watcher), does not care how his workspace looks, tells the newbies to "Go ask Joan", and relies only on his Associates Degree from the local Community College.

Whom do you think deserves higher pay within the same pay-grade?



QFT
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jun 2019
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,456

03 Dec 2021, 6:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
... Why do they put a range rather than the exact number?
To allow supervisors to award such things as promptness, collateral duties, voluntary overtime, innovative suggestions, self-improvement (i.e., outside study and certification), and overall "team spirit".

For example, "Joan" shows up early, leaves late, always keeps her workspace neat and tidy, volunteers to train the newbies, and is working on completing all available Cisco certifications to supplement her Associates Degree from the local Community College.

"Robert", however, shows up on time, leaves on time (he is a real clock-watcher), does not care how his workspace looks, tells the newbies to "Go ask Joan", and relies only on his Associates Degree from the local Community College.

Whom do you think deserves higher pay within the same pay-grade?


In this case, Joan deserves more pay.

And now I see a dillemma. So on the one hand its possible for two people to put the same number of hours yet have totally different attitude, so you want to be able to reward better attitude (which is what price ranges are for). But on the other hand, any "tool" that would "reward better attitude" can also be used to "reward the desired gender". Herein lies the problem.