Turning Points for Leaving Christianity

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No. People (here in the U.S.A. at least) complain the most about Christianity because it's the majority religion, thus the most politically powerful.

You live in the U.K. You evidently have no idea what American Christianity is like, or how politicized it is, especially in the Bible Belt.

(Even a lot of Americans outside the Bible Belt don't quite get it. Maybe if/when the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, they will finally get it.)

There are more recent examples than the Crusades or the Inquisition. Not to offend people's sensibilities on the matter, but if you look at anything political in the U.S. recently, you will see some rather peculiar patterns in how some of the most atrocious offenses to human rights and civil liberties are pioneered by those on the ultra conservative Christian Right.

To address carlos55's point directly, this is more a matter of being an issue with conservatism. Most societies that are lean conservative tend to display the ugly side of humanity. However, *religion* tends to prefer conservatism, and in most cases they are linked. It doesn't matter if you are talking Christian Conservatism or Islamic or Buddhist Conservatism. Or any other.

The figure Jesus was actually quite radically left leaning, "Liberal" so to speak, during the time he supposedly lived (I say supposedly because I am not convinced he was a real person, but that isn't relevant to this conversation). However, the religion that grew out of his teachings is decidedly Conservative. There is a reason for this: The Roman state was at the time very Conservative, and since they pretty much hand crafted the religion that is a no brainer on why conservatism was installed into the religion, and moreover the religious leaders that had control of the church upon it's inception were the same ones that Jesus was rebelling against.

Jesus cast the money lenders out of the temple, remember? Well...it didn't take long for them to get back in, and then they went about putting their fingerprints on the religion that started out as a protest against them.

History writes itself since then, and here we are, when most conservative politicians think they are doing the work of god by making sure that the impoverished stay impoverished.



Not to mention all the other fun atrocities that are done with the endorsement of the God of Abraham (In Either Jesus' name or in the name of Muhammed, take your pick).

^ Yes, I know there are more recent examples, but I was trying to stay out of current politics.

There is some evidence there was a real person, Jesus. Not much, I'll grant you. And he was revolutionary for his time. And the development of the religion and the documenting of the gospels was done by people not even born when Jesus was alive. The earliest gospel, Mark, is believed to have been written some 80 years after the death of Jesus. There were also other preachers who were also revolutionary at the time.

Incidentally, in the Bible, nowhere does Jesus say he is God or is the Son of God. In fact, if I remember correctly, there are only two places in which Jesus is called/recognized to be God. I think those were John the Baptist and the devils tempting Jesus in his 40 days in the wilderness.

My opinion is that the rigid rules others have placed on how you are supposed to live your life is what is driving people away from Christianity. Rules contradicting the teachings of Jesus.

The two commandments Jesus gave, which should be the basis of Christianity, are really all that is needed. (Even if you don't believe in God, it is a good idea not to place yourself as the highest of all creatures. )

---

Having a Portrait
Above my Bed of
A Bearded Man In A Town
in the 60's Where Hippies
Like That Were Dismissed

As Chickens; Yes,

Cowards

For Wanting

Peace Rather Than Burning

Folks Up in A Grift of Vietnam;

Yes, Including my First Cousin,

one of the Very Few Surviving
Males on my Mothers' Side of the
Family, Burning Up in a Useless War

In Vietnam As He Wanted to Be One
of The Greatest in the Generation of World War 2
And A Hero For His Country Instead of the Ultimate

Sacrifice He Became of the Industrial Military Complex
That Has Always Slept in

the Same Bed

Ever Since

The 'Holy'

Catholic Roman
Empire That Seemed
to Turn the Other Cheek
During the Adolph And Mussolini
Rules; True, My Grand Father Was An X-Catholic
Priest Who Was Counsel at the Vatican And Later
A Priest in South Africa, Moving to Gainesville, Then
Taylor County in Northwest Florida, Where A 17 Year-Old
Cajun Girl Woo'ed Him at age 36, From the Pews And Of Course
As The Story Goes the Marriage Wasn't Consummated Until Age 18,

Yeah,

Whatever...

Anyway, He Wrote
A Book Titled "Behind
The Dictators" As He Surely
Had an Inside Line of what Went
On in the Vatican in His Formative
Years As an Irish Priest, Originally Born in Limerick...

Yes, There is A Rich History of Christianity on my Father's
Side As He Became An Evangelist For the Protestant Way Authoring
The "Converted Catholic Magazine" in New York, New York, For 10 Years

And Author of Several Noted Books Last Century Such as "Soul of a Priest"
And "Out of the Labyrinth" that Actually Sits on my Night Stand Where
One Day i Might Finish it; Yet is Devoid of the Colors of Emotion And

Humor Like Most So-Called

Christianity Associated

'Sacred Text';

i Find it Boring

Yet still Perhaps
Worth More Study
One Day when i am Super Bored...

It's More like Yes, i Was Raised in the Catholic
Church, It's Obviously A Maze of Constructed Dogma;

Yes, to Keep Folks in the Doors And Even Fear for
Burning in Hell, if they Miss Church on Sundays; Yes,
When They Aren't There to Tithe And Support the

New Building Fund; Yes,

There's Always a Building

Fund As Of Course it's Always

Been a Capitalistic Church This way

Supporting An Empire As Such at Least...

Anyway, It Was A Huge Contradiction Already

That Dudes With Long Hair And Beards Were
Called Hippies And Basically Spit on by the Local
Culture; Yet This One Got A Pass, Not Only Not to Be

Bullied Yet

Called the
Frigging King of the Universe

That Really Made Absolutely No Sense,
Along with An All Loving God and Jesus
Loving Enemies in the Beatitudes and by
The End of the Most Ridiculous Contradictory
Gaslit Story Ever Lie That Same Good Cop God and
Jesus Turned into Bloodiest True Evil Changing Once Loyal
Sheep into Goats Who Did Not Do Enough Do Gooding in

Life Torturing
Them Forever

of Course

the Locality of the
United States in the
Record Books For The
Most Christian Churches Already

Hated The Other And Didn't
Wanna Clothe and Feed the
Poor So What The Fresh Hell Did

That Have to Do With A Hippy Looking
Dude With a Beard And Long Hair Who Emptied
His Pockets With His Friends Who All Emptied Their Pockets

Living off the Kindness of Others Spreading Good News

of Just Loving

It all DarK
Thru LiGHT...

i Was Raised Poor
With Very few Material
Goods, Luxuries, And Comforts

Of Life Like A Hot Water Heater,

Like An Air-Conditioner in A Car
And House; Yet At Least i had Food
And Drink AND LOVE; Something REAL my Wife
Couldn't Count on As Real Wonder Woman Starting

Her Vocation Early at 8, Climbing 40 Foot Trees Then
Looking Over the Have's Roofs as the Have-Nots Picked

Fruit off of
Trees For

Both Food
And the Moisture
That Was in the Fruit...

That's the Person Ya Wanna
Meet And Marry, Who Will One
Day Have the Real Wonder Woman
Fortitude to Stand By Her Man in
Real HeLL ON Earth For 66 Months

And See the Other Side of Heaven

Where You are Financially Independent;

Yet Unlike the Local First Baptist Folks, Not

Averse to Never Passing By a Homeless Person

To At Least Spare A Few Bucks, No Matter What
They do With that Couple of Dollars, including
Buying A Beer to Escape the Inner Demons of Mental Illness

for a Moment

or Two at Least

As of course, NO

They Ain't Gonna
Get Much Help in

A State That

Won't Support Them
That Way Run by Mini-Me
Trump DeSatanis of Course...

Religion is One of my Special Interests...

i Guess it is at least Partially in my Blood; And In Fact
As Social Animals We Do Naturally Bond and Bind Over
Common Meaning and Purpose (Religion) in Life Through

Ideologies and Symbols We Co-Construct As Being Human;

However, i See the Labyrinth Through and Through;

i Surely Didn't Stop at the Catholic Church Like my
Grandfather And Latch on to the Rest of the Myths

Associated

With

Christianity

As Literal Truth...

The Human Creature

is Not Rational at Core; The Human
Creature is a Social Emotional Animal

That Will Bond Over Any Common LiGHT
Thru DarK Meaning and Purpose to Bind

And Survive With Whatever 'Religion'

Is Devised And

Even Thrive

No Matter if that

Common Meaning and
Purpose Has any Real Validity
or Not; And Folks Will Defend the

Most Ridiculous Beliefs Like there were
Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq;

When Folks From Another Country

Crushed the Twin Towers

With Our Planes

From this Country

Yet of Course the
Oil-Rich Country
of Saudi-Arabia

Wasn't a Viable Option
to Reconstruct After it
Was torn Down Like Iraq to Make
Bucks By the Military-Industrial Complex; Yes,

Power Breeds Corruption As Does Competition
Over Cooperation; Yet That's What Happens When Nomads

No Longer Depend on Each other to Survive in the Forage
of Life Each Day Dancing And Singing Their Way Almost
Naked Through Life Where the Child is the Prize and

All Hands

Mean

Survival

And Every

Skill is Needed

Where Variety in
The Human Condition
Means Life or Death Now; Yes,

When 'You' Start to Store Grain

in the Silos, Sit on Your Butt and

Get Separated in Mind and Body Balance

REAL SOUL That's When The Trouble

Starts and

The

Labyrinth

OF All of Humanity

Becomes All the Clothes

That Cover the Natural

Born on Naked Enough

Whole Complete World

in Balance Where

Night

is Appreciated

As Much For Rest

As Day is For Making

it through the Next Day

Alive, Moving, Connecting,
And Co-Creating, Including

Humanity And Not Just Tools

That Have Become More our Humanity than
Who We Even Are, Naked Enough Whole Complete;

Yes, The Whole

Way is

Ill, Yet

That's What

Happens When

Ya Start to Hoard Over Share
And Take Over Give; the Karma

of Nature Bites Back, When Whatever
Part of Nature All And As Us Moves

Out of Nature Balance;

And is ruled

By Other

Contrived
Abstract
Constructs

in A Book That

Becomes God instead of Nature;

Anyway, i attend Church Every Week

As It's too Dam Fascinating Not to, When

One is Studying All the Strange Parts of the Condition Being Human...

Plus, i Rather Enjoy A Dancing Singing Communion Of Love No Matter What Ridiculous

(Yes, The Local Metro Dance Hall Before COVID-19, Was A MUCH GREATER HUMAN RELIGION)

Stuff Folks

Believe

in When

They Aren't

Actually Moving,
Connecting, Co-Creating
In A Real Spirit of Loving All...

And On Top of that Overall; YES,

At Least there is a Good Cop Jesus

That Naturally Kind Folks Will Find

Somewhere in that Bible to See that

There is Someone Like them at Least

in a Story When Everyone is Spitting on
The Long Haired Hippy Dude Who Rather

Inhales

Peace

And Exhales LoVE iN LiGHT

oF Joy Free As, With, And For All...

Jesus, the Good Cop Part of the
Story Was Real Enough to me

to See

Where
i Lived
at Least

There was a Story
About Someone Like me...

Of Course, Before i Went to
School And Work And Became

More Machine and Tool Than Human

As i Strive to Keep my Humanity as an 'Avatar' 'These
Days' as Hey, When in Rome Ya Gotta Fit in Enough to Survive

And God
Yes Even

THRIVE;

Love Adapts

And Love Wins

Best Part of the

Human Story, the

Only Part of that
Old Dusty Book That's me...

Honestly We Need More Folks Man
And Or Woman To Actually Do the
Good Cop Jesus in Life So, Here is me

Singing 'Here i AM'

Haha!

For Real,

My Wife iphoned
it when the Choir Director
Was Out Sick and i led the
Choir As A Volunteer From the

Back Pew, The Sweet Soft Voice Singing "i Will Go"
That Comes Through is my Wife for A Moment at Least...

You Don't Have to Go to Church to Be a Real Good Cop Jesus,

In Fact, Through my Working Years, When i Didn't Go For 23 Years,
The Church Leaders Who Brought in Their Church Groups to Bowl
In My Stint as A Military Bowling Center Manager Said i Was the

Greatest Example

of A Christian

They Ever met;

All i Did Was Treat

Each one of them As
If they Were the Face of
God That's the Way My Mother
Always Treated me; Yes Ya Live

As You Are Raised in A Garden of Love or not...

i Didn't Need Any Trademark Jesus in A Story That's
Who My Mother Was

From the Start...

Anyway, Like

i DANCE
SING FREE

"Here i am"...

And Yes, In this
Life i've met a Few
Like me too; Traveling
Far Enough Around the
Globe as An 'Avatar' these days... too....

And in "Real Life," 'We' Don't Have Any Special
Language; It's All in the Windows of the Soul When Real...

And Me of Course,
The Dance

And Song

As i Have
to Wear SHades at Night...

In Short, Unashamed, Naked,
Enough, Whole Complete, Whenever

i Go to Church

i Welcome

Christianity to
Return to me...

-Here i Am...

~Ya Really Have
To Come out of Hell
For 66 Months for ReaL ON EartH Within
To Truly Dance And Sing This Song oF SoUL

With No

Fear...

at
least
FoR Me...

---

Yes, few history scholars doubt that he existed - it looks very likely that he was baptised by John the Baptist, that he went around preaching, had some followers, and that he was crucified. There's no hard evidence for anything much else about him. I guess that's why every organised Christian church I've seen are so big on this notion of "faith." The earliest New Testament books are (I think) by Paul, who AFAIK never even met Jesus (except in that story he told about his conversion), but somehow got his claim to be an apostle accepted.

Personally, I wasn't raised to be religious and I never bought into any religious group, and the few attempts my teachers made to indoctrinate me failed because they didn't make sense to me. So I was never in any religion and therefore there was nothing to leave, though I was long enough in a state where I didn't feel I could entirely rule out the possibility that there was a god and an afterlife, and something in all those strange ideas that Christians talk of. The indoctrination's one "success" was that it made me worried about dismissing the whole thing and not having this "faith" they said was so important. But as time went by, little by little I shook it off as I saw more and more reasons not to worry about it. I suppose I could claim to be a Christian in an allegorical sense, because I like some of the New Testament ideas, and if Jesus really had been what he's often cracked up to be and I'd been around at the time, I think I'd have liked him a lot.

I don't really remember feeling particularly Christian--whatever that was supposed to be--while growing up in the Episcopal church; mostly I just went along because my parents made me do it. However, when our minister spoke to us in our jr. high Sunday school class, I started to see it really wasn't the place for me and that was perfectly ok! He spoke about what other faiths and denominations believed, one by one....and one by one, he told us why they were wrong. In the end, it was only the Episcopalians who had it right, of course.

I had already recognized that church/religion was full of contradictions that rarely made any sense, and as I worked my way through my teens and into adulthood, I learned more about that much-maligned spirituality, which has served me far better than any particular religion. It may work well for others, but I see many drawbacks and give thanks that I've shed them from my life.

The figure known as Jesus may have existed as a man, and there may be some, *SOME* things that overlap with his life and that depicted in the biblical narrative.

However, I am very skeptical of the character depicted in the Bible (or elsewhere, since the figure worshipped by most Christian's today has nothing in common with the Biblical Jesus anyway) having actually existed. It feels to me much more likely that the stories got exaggerated and bloated over time and ended up presenting us with a fictional character that is touted as being historically real.

That seems rather ill advised and foolish if you ask me, but I learned long ago not to bother changing the minds of those who have decided to believe in Jesus (whichever form he takes in their minds).

I do think that a good deal of the philosophies presented by this character are good, in theory. They are not perfect by any means and there is much to be desired. But I also see value in the Tao or in Buddhist teachings, or in the teachings of Wicca. Since so many religions have a common thread when it comes to the basics (The basics mind you, the dogma and doctrine vary very widely), I accept those basic philosophical principles as being more or less good to follow as a practice.

But I don't find much value in the rest beyond that, except as a matter of interesting discussion material sometimes. Mythology is one of my special interests, and so I find the stories interesting. Right up until people start telling me the stories are real. Then it becomes uncomfortable to have to try to talk about how absurd that is when they treat mythologies that don't exist in their own particular dogma as fiction but don't see that their own dogma has nothing special that exempts it from that status.

*shrug*

This is why I don't spend a lot of time bothering with Christianity. That uncomfortable confrontation happens too often and never seems to go anywhere, so I tend to just keep my thoughts to myself. Unless I find people who are willing to at least listen.

So, thank you for that.

Wrong.

Jesus was a jew like any other jew.

The true founder of Christianity is Paul the Apostle and later the Roman Empire.

It is because of Paul that Christianity exists as we know it - a non-jewish religion, because Paul allowed gentiles to enter the community.

Christianity is a mix of Mithraism and Judaism - mostly the former.

Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 14 Dec 2021, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And Benjamin Franklin was British. Rather misses the point of the man.

Jesus didn't invent Christianity. He never believed himself to be Christ/The Messiah - it's all later editions of the gospels, written centuries after his death.

The Jesus as potrayed in the gospels does not even come close to the real thing.

All this "born by a virgin", "rising from the dead" etc. is not unique at all for Christianity. It existed in various pagan myths as well.

The miracles of Jesus wasn't unique either. Many people at that time were believed to be miracle makers.

Osiris and Mithraism are the true origins of Christianity.

The Egyptian Horus/Set stuff fits a lot better than the Persian Mithras

Trouble is, sources like Tom Harpur and Zeitgeist do a horrible job and discredit the whole thing. Almost as bad as passing Trump off as Cyrus.

btw There is a strong Greek influence in the gospel of John, somebody was a philosophy nerd.

Thank you for sharing.

Without Jesus, Saul would not have been converted while on his way to Damascus, the Zealots would have prevailed, and Judaism would likely have been just an ordinary monotheistic sect from Palestine.

I think I would have liked Jesus (as judged by what the gospel writers said about him), but not Paul (as judged by what's ascribed to him in the Pauline section of the New Testament).