Page 3 of 4 [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Raised By Wolves
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2015
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: UK

01 Jan 2022, 6:40 pm

ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law



txfz1
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2021
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,411
Location: US

01 Jan 2022, 7:00 pm

I met a pedophile this summer, I think he is also a psychopath so everything he said was questionable. He and his younger brother were abused by his older sisters. He just recently had a brutal divorce by a woman that domineered him. Claimed his wedding day was one of the happiest day in his life, 200 people were at the mountain camp. He now does his groc shopping in the early morning hours to avoid people, has no friends, demanded control, and I think was f*****g the next door neighbor's 14 yo girl. I see him as wanting to control and damage people for his own pleasure.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

01 Jan 2022, 7:09 pm

Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law


But what if a gay person wants the conversion therapy for example? Shouldn't people have the rights to any therapy they desire, especially if they are willing to pay for it themselves? But I guess if they would be paying for it, then it would be more like behavorial cognitive therapy, and not conversion therapy?



AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

01 Jan 2022, 8:04 pm

ironpony wrote:
Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law


But what if a gay person wants the conversion therapy for example? Shouldn't people have the rights to any therapy they desire, especially if they are willing to pay for it themselves? But I guess if they would be paying for it, then it would be more like behavorial cognitive therapy, and not conversion therapy?

If something is respected by law, does that always mean it's a good thing?

The mentality people outside the (cis-hetero) norm tend to have seems to be somewhere between "you do you" and there's nothing wrong with you the way you are.

A crisis occurs when someone has preferences that aren't simply outside the norm, but are preferences he does not WANT to have. A therapy could likely be developed that accounts for what a person wants and proceeds to achieve those goals.

If someone has an unwanted same-sex preference, he could focus on learning to cope or somehow correcting it without engaging in homosexual behavior. In that sense, it's not really "conversion therapy" because he's not really converting from anything. He wants to live as a cis-hetero even if he isn't naturally predisposed to it.

Dennis Jernigan is an excellent example of how that can happen. He struggled with his sexuality early in life, had some bad experiences in college, and identified as gay for some time. Long story short, he became a born-again Christian and, I think, got into some kind of therapy--can't recall exactly what was involved, but basically he didn't immediately jump to being a heterosexual man. He decided that it was best to avoid relationships as a whole since he was worried about his orientation being a problem. He met his wife, and they have 9 kids.

So...people can and DO change. I think the real question is how badly people want something or want to change, and how much making the change is worth to them.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,881
Location: temperate zone

01 Jan 2022, 8:09 pm

Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law


The trend toward outlawing conversion therapy is more of a consumer issue. It doesnt work. Its abusive. And its not accepted by the scientific community, as medically legit.

Decades ago I would read that "curing homosexuality is hard, expensive, and requires an experienced doctor". Now they just say "you cant cure homosexuality". So pedophilia, I would imagine, would also be considered uncurable.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

01 Jan 2022, 8:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law


The trend toward outlawing conversion therapy is more of a consumer issue. It doesnt work. Its abusive. And its not accepted by the scientific community, as medically legit.

Decades ago I would read that "curing homosexuality is hard, expensive, and requires an experienced doctor". Now they just say "you cant cure homosexuality". So pedophilia, I would imagine, would also be considered uncurable.


But can this be confirmed though? Are there any former pedophiles, or any former homosexual people for example who came forward and said they were cured by therapists and that it works? Not through abusive conversion therapy but legimitate therapy wise?



blitzkrieg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jun 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,472
Location: United Kingdom

01 Jan 2022, 9:39 pm

I personally feel that conversion therapy should be an option for those that want it. But it should never be encouraged on any level, either by businesses or on a societal level.

Conversely, gender reassignment surgery should be an option, too, but not encouraged on a societal level.

Everything should be an option. That is what freedom is about.

An individual decides what is right for them.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,789
Location: London

02 Jan 2022, 12:14 pm

Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law

People who either sexually abuse children or encourage the sexual abuse of children are not merely exercising their own personal freedom, they are harming other people. Sexual activity between consenting adults is fine, but children are not consenting adults.

We do not allow people to be rapists (failings of our legal system to one side).

If, hypothetically, someone wants to be quietly attracted to children without ever doing anything to either harm children or encourage others to do so (for example, by accessing CP) then... fine. I say that through gritted teeth, but fine. They should receive any help they wish to receive that might help prevent them offending, but they shouldn't be punished for being the way they are. They should be punished, however, if they put children at risk.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

02 Jan 2022, 12:32 pm

I'm assuming though that the pleasure of paedophillia is wanting to harm someone though, and it's not just a matter of what they think is sexy in terms of preferences only, is it? I could be wrong.



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,150
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

02 Jan 2022, 1:29 pm

ironpony wrote:
I'm assuming though that the pleasure of paedophillia is wanting to harm someone though, and it's not just a matter of what they think is sexy in terms of preferences only, is it? I could be wrong.


There's a guy who has a blog on his own experience and his own take on the politics, illegality, etc.. Obviously he's writing it as a celibate pedophile (the other kind can't really write blogs about their activities) so he's representing one corner of the space:

https://livingwithpedophilia.wordpress.com/


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,881
Location: temperate zone

02 Jan 2022, 2:52 pm

ironpony wrote:
I'm assuming though that the pleasure of paedophillia is wanting to harm someone though, and it's not just a matter of what they think is sexy in terms of preferences only, is it? I could be wrong.


Interesting question.

Is Pedo simply - what some folks have in place of heterosexual attraction to adult members of opposite sex that straights have?

Or for adults of the same sex that most homosexuals have?

Or is it something else- like a need to excercise power, or to inflict pain?

Im not sure what the scientific consensus is on the subject.

A convicted teen I saw on a TV doc years ago talked about it like it was the former- just his way having sexual lust. "Sometimes I get triggered when I see parents with a really cute kid in a stroller, and have to walk on the other side of the street". Like he has some wires crossed in his brain. And the sight of a "cute kid" that might trigger yours and my parental instincts , but not our mating instinct (the way the sight of an attractive adult would in normal folks), does go into the wrong circuits in his nervous system, and does trigger his mating instincts. And he gets sexually aroused.

On the other hand you do hear about child sexual abusers who do it because they themselves had been sexually abused as children.

Maybe there are both kinds of pedos.



ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 39
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

02 Jan 2022, 3:16 pm

Oh okay. It seems when it comes to pedos who do it because they were abused as children, that this is much more common in men though, than women, unless I am wrong. I just know women who have been abused as children but do not do have a sexual attraction to children in their adulthood as a result, but maybe it's just as common for both genders?



Raised By Wolves
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2015
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: UK

02 Jan 2022, 6:00 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Raised By Wolves wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Is paedophillia something that can be cured by psychotherapy, or is it something like say heterosexuality or homosexuality, where you are attracted to what you are attracted to, and no therapy will change that?

interesting question especially given the move by many governments currently to outlaw 'conversion therapy' for gay people as it is now the given position that everyone must be respected for the way they were born and the sexual preferences that they express in life, logically speaking this would have to apply to paedophiles equally but apparently it doesn't

not saying that they should have free rein but in terms of stigmatisation and the help that may or may not be offered to them then surely they have a right to something as by modern values it is not a life that that they chose just as gay or transgender people would say that they didn't choose to be that way but that is the way they find themselves to be and that is now respected by law

People who either sexually abuse children or encourage the sexual abuse of children are not merely exercising their own personal freedom, they are harming other people. Sexual activity between consenting adults is fine, but children are not consenting adults.

We do not allow people to be rapists (failings of our legal system to one side).

If, hypothetically, someone wants to be quietly attracted to children without ever doing anything to either harm children or encourage others to do so (for example, by accessing CP) then... fine. I say that through gritted teeth, but fine. They should receive any help they wish to receive that might help prevent them offending, but they shouldn't be punished for being the way they are. They should be punished, however, if they put children at risk.

since you quoted me I am assuming that what you say is some sort of response that you feel needed to be made to what I had said which is confusing as you seem to be addressing something I didn't in fact say; I nowhere stated or implied that 'People who either sexually abuse children or encourage the sexual abuse of children are... exercising their own personal freedom' nor anything like it



techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,150
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

02 Jan 2022, 6:16 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. It seems when it comes to pedos who do it because they were abused as children, that this is much more common in men though, than women, unless I am wrong. I just know women who have been abused as children but do not do have a sexual attraction to children in their adulthood as a result, but maybe it's just as common for both genders?

The thing I'd suggest - it takes really impaired reality testing for someone to actually reach into that territory and identify with the role of a child rapist, or at least their thoughts and internal worlds would have to be in dissarray. Could someone get there though cold psychopathy? Sure, that seems to be the way Epstein and Spacey found their way into it, but in either case you're looking at (in child sexual abusers) either some kind of cluster B disorder where cannibalizing other people is perfectly okay with them or someone whose so drowned in trauma that they're barely making it from day to day, and in the later case most people in that category would rather stay in bed or watch TV if they can help it.

I think that's where you'd need to separate people who have sexual attraction to children from people who actually go out and act on it. Anyone who knows that doing so is effectively them freebasing another person's life and smoking it has almost as unbreakable a wall against that behavior as most ordinary adults have against raping someone they're attracted to. If you have a moral compass at all or much self awareness it doesn't add up.

The guy who wrote the blog I linked to, as far as I know (don't know him personally but he's a pretty good at sharing his internal world through writing) is in the category of just trying to make his life add up in a way he can feel right about and he's (anonymously at least) sharing his sense-making process of it. In his most recent article actually (topic 'Disgust') he was trying to sort out the proper scope of where too much or too little of it, or even misapplied, is maladaptive and in that brought up the connection between disgust and morality and how someone in his position would utilize it for navigating social situations and keeping himself out of trouble.


_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


Lost_dragon
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,738
Location: England

16 Jan 2022, 4:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Interesting question.

Is Pedo simply - what some folks have in place of heterosexual attraction to adult members of opposite sex that straights have?

Or for adults of the same sex that most homosexuals have?

Or is it something else- like a need to excercise power, or to inflict pain?

Im not sure what the scientific consensus is on the subject.

A convicted teen I saw on a TV doc years ago talked about it like it was the former- just his way having sexual lust. "Sometimes I get triggered when I see parents with a really cute kid in a stroller, and have to walk on the other side of the street". Like he has some wires crossed in his brain. And the sight of a "cute kid" that might trigger yours and my parental instincts , but not our mating instinct (the way the sight of an attractive adult would in normal folks), does go into the wrong circuits in his nervous system, and does trigger his mating instincts. And he gets sexually aroused.

On the other hand you do hear about child sexual abusers who do it because they themselves had been sexually abused as children.

Maybe there are both kinds of pedos.


As a general rule of thumb, the suffix is a good indicator of how something is perceived. There seem to be three main areas; sexual orientation, fetish and philia. Regarding the latter, philia is an abnormal love or fondness for a specific thing. For example, you might hear someone describe themselves as a bibliophile (someone who loves / has an unusual fondness of books) but they are unlikely to call themselves bibliosexual.

Orientation is usually considered to be in the realms of expected sexuality and ends with 'sexual' as the suffix, heterosexuality (attraction to the opposite sex) being the average, homosexuality (attraction to the same sex) is sex-atypical but still more or less in the realm of expected sexual responses, bisexuality (attraction to both sexes) is a mixture of both sex-typicality and sex-atypicality, and asexuality is atypical but still within the realms of understood sexuality.

Fetish largely seems to be influenced by experiences. I'll admit I don't know much about this subject though.

Whereas, philia is unexpected responses. There seem to be two main types of paedophiles, the first being exclusively attracted to children and the second experiences attraction to both adults and children. Interestingly, some paedophiles have contrasting attractions where they might be drawn to young boys but like adult women. The second type of paedophile seem to have an easier time fitting into society as they can find someone to settle down with and can potentially stay quiet about it. Whereas, the first type are going to have a difficult time. Those who commit sexual crimes despite knowing the harm it does and that children cannot give informed consent, likely experience a thrill from the power. You're probably looking at a comorbidity of issues in such situations.

It does appear to be the result of a misfire in the brain. From what I've read, which I'll admit is not all that much, our current understanding of paedophiles is that it is a fault with what is typically our protection instinct. In most individuals, seeing an image of a baby is going to trigger a response of thinking it is cute and needs protecting. We typically feel the need to nurture a baby. On a similar note, we find kittens and puppies cute for the same reason, they trigger that response with their infant like features. Cats have learnt to recreate cries that sound like a human baby and use this ability because they know it gets our attention. Do not underestimate the power of cute. Anyway, this connection appears to be faulty in paedophiles. So, the question becomes, is it possible to prevent this? I think the answer to that is we don't know for sure. We'd have to establish what causes this fault, and when it occurs exactly to figure out if it's preventable. However, I suspect that the answer is likely no. So, does this qualify it as a mental illness? I don't know, you'd have to ask someone who works in the realm of mental illness. There does appear to be significant overlap between zoophiles (people attracted to animals) and paedophiles. However, it should be noted that an attraction to anthropomorphic animals is fairly common. It becomes more unusual when the animal in question is more animal than human. When the animal is predominately human-like in terms of features it's usually deemed to be in the territory of fetish, but if the animal is closer to the animal part of the scale then it starts falling under being a zoophile.

People usually bring up the fact that homosexuality was considered a mental illness at this point. Which is true, it used to be in the diagnostic manual. However, with public acceptance people decided to remove it. Since although it is sex-atypical, it does not appear to cause any harm. There are a lot of different theories out there regarding why homosexuality exists. Ranging from speculating that it is so the group has a spare set of parents to look after children in a community in case a heterosexual pairing dies, to theories about homosexuality being a side effect of hyperfertility (such as a certain cluster of traits being beneficial to members of the opposite sex in the family of a homosexual individual and resulting in a state of hyperfertility among family members, but not being beneficial when inherited by members of the other sex). This is just to name a couple of theories, there are plenty more speculations out there. Homosexuality does act in a way that is similar to heterosexuality in the opposite sex. I don't find women who are genetically similar to me to be attractive in the same way most straight men don't find family members attractive either. That drive acts as though it is looking for a mate to reproduce with, despite the body it is in.


_________________
24. Possibly B.A.P.


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 59,750
Location: Stendec

16 Jan 2022, 5:37 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
Is pedophilia a mental illness?
If pedophilia not a mental illness, then it should be.