If NTs are so good at reading hidden cues...

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Joe90
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13 Dec 2021, 2:30 pm

...then why do so many child protection agencies fail at detecting when a child is being abused? Surely they could see that the child is nervous in their body language (and also visual clues like bruises or looking starved), and even if the abusers cover up their evilness Bor turn on the water works (false crying) I thought NTs could still tell when someone is faking or hiding emotions.

Then I was once watching a documentary where a woman was falsely accused of abusing her child, and she said that in court she broke down and went hysterical, begging for them to give her back her child and that she was innocent. The child protection agency and the court still didn't believe her, even though she had some evidence and witnesses to say she was innocent. I can't remember the ins and outs of the situation but after collecting more physical evidence they finally gave her child back, but it took a couple of years.

But real abusers, evil, unkempt-looking people with smug faces and dirty homes and an uncanny way about their body language get believed.

I assume most child protection agency workers are NTs, and most cops, but yet they seem to miss important cues in people's body language. How come?


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13 Dec 2021, 2:33 pm

Hmm.. that's a good question.



HighLlama
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13 Dec 2021, 4:13 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I assume most child protection agency workers are NTs, and most cops, but yet they seem to miss important cues in people's body language. How come?


Possibly through misinterpreting. They may decide the signs of abuse are just shyness. I think most people assume parents love their children, and don't want to think about or deal with the darker parts of human behavior. So they may interpret things in a way which feels better, rather than get involved in something they don't want to think about.



Joe90
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13 Dec 2021, 7:27 pm

HighLlama wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I assume most child protection agency workers are NTs, and most cops, but yet they seem to miss important cues in people's body language. How come?


Possibly through misinterpreting. They may decide the signs of abuse are just shyness. I think most people assume parents love their children, and don't want to think about or deal with the darker parts of human behavior. So they may interpret things in a way which feels better, rather than get involved in something they don't want to think about.


Misinterpretation is still misreading body language, something only autistics are guilty of. And the people from the child protection agency are supposed to be professional in protecting children against abuse. I know abusive sociopaths can be convincing but I thought NTs were supposed to be social experts at seeing through any lies or charades. And some abusive parents are crap at covering things up anyway and still seem to get away with it.


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ToughDiamond
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13 Dec 2021, 7:56 pm

My best guess is that it's less about poor cue-reading skills than it is about corruption - people, with enormous power over the lives of others, who have no interest in behaving responsibly or operating due diligence. I've heard a lot of reports of the heartbreaking damage they inflict, but I've never once heard of any of them being punished for it.



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14 Dec 2021, 4:29 am

Joe90 wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I assume most child protection agency workers are NTs, and most cops, but yet they seem to miss important cues in people's body language. How come?


Possibly through misinterpreting. They may decide the signs of abuse are just shyness. I think most people assume parents love their children, and don't want to think about or deal with the darker parts of human behavior. So they may interpret things in a way which feels better, rather than get involved in something they don't want to think about.


Misinterpretation is still misreading body language, something only autistics are guilty of. And the people from the child protection agency are supposed to be professional in protecting children against abuse. I know abusive sociopaths can be convincing but I thought NTs were supposed to be social experts at seeing through any lies or charades. And some abusive parents are crap at covering things up anyway and still seem to get away with it.


I know it's still misinterpretation. I was just offering one possible explanation. NTs are not social experts, they are good at understanding themselves. Because they make up most people, and many see themselves as normal or ideal, they describe themselves as social experts. They use the phrase "social skills" to describe social behaviors which give them pleasure--for example saying hello and goodbye. Many with ASD do not say hello or goodbye, but may just exchange useful information. This is also a social skill.

Also, I think many NTs get their identity from group connection. They aren't so kind or understanding to people outside of that group. I work with disabled people, and most of the staff don't seem to understand s*** about them.



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14 Dec 2021, 5:19 am

skrish234 wrote:
Hmm.. that's a good question.

with one good answer: being an "NT" doesn't make a person extremely good at body language. Some people ASD are even better at it than some people with NT.
Also, I think people with NT don't really focus on the details as much as they should. They might have this disorder in which they are forced to focus the "whole picture". They will then miss important details.



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14 Dec 2021, 5:23 am

HighLlama wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
I assume most child protection agency workers are NTs, and most cops, but yet they seem to miss important cues in people's body language. How come?


Possibly through misinterpreting. They may decide the signs of abuse are just shyness. I think most people assume parents love their children, and don't want to think about or deal with the darker parts of human behavior. So they may interpret things in a way which feels better, rather than get involved in something they don't want to think about.


Misinterpretation is still misreading body language, something only autistics are guilty of. And the people from the child protection agency are supposed to be professional in protecting children against abuse. I know abusive sociopaths can be convincing but I thought NTs were supposed to be social experts at seeing through any lies or charades. And some abusive parents are crap at covering things up anyway and still seem to get away with it.


I know it's still misinterpretation. I was just offering one possible explanation. NTs are not social experts, they are good at understanding themselves. Because they make up most people, and many see themselves as normal or ideal, they describe themselves as social experts. They use the phrase "social skills" to describe social behaviors which give them pleasure--for example saying hello and goodbye. Many with ASD do not say hello or goodbye, but may just exchange useful information. This is also a social skill.

Also, I think many NTs get their identity from group connection. They aren't so kind or understanding to people outside of that group. I work with disabled people, and most of the staff don't seem to understand s*** about them.

are you saying that people with NT are often bad at understanding different people?
The thing is: I am tired of the "people with NT are so perfect and people ASD are so disordered!". I am happy to read post from people who think NT could be a disorder as well.



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14 Dec 2021, 5:54 am

Dandansson wrote:
are you saying that people with NT are often bad at understanding different people?
The thing is: I am tired of the "people with NT are so perfect and people ASD are so disordered!". I am happy to read post from people who think NT could be a disorder as well.


Yes, exactly. What NTs call empathy is basically their ability to understand each other. But, we can all understand things that are like us. This isn't special. What is special is being able to understand what is very different from you. From spending time with them, it's clear most are terrible at this. If they were so social and empathetic, we wouldn't have the social problems we do, for one. I wouldn't personally say it's a disorder, just one way of being. Same as ASD.

Related to this, it is easy to interpret other people's behavior based on why we would behave that way, which isn't necessarily how the other person thinks. Most people think I'm very shy, when I just hate eye contact, facial expressions, and vocal inflections. Also light and noise. So I tend to shut down around these things. But, since most people don't experience this, they assume I'm shy, because if they behaved like me then it would be due to shyness.

A simpler example is when cats narrow their eyes. This looks angry to people, because that's what it means in human behavior. But for a cat it means trust. It is basically their version of a smile. When I explain this to most people, they don't really want to accept it. I think many NTs need to feel their way is the way, which is hardly empathetic. Of course, we can all be guilty of this.



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14 Dec 2021, 6:09 am

From my experiences as an adult with the DWP they routinely use unqualified staff to do remote assessments. We just need to look at the way people who have a legitimate need of disability benefits are often rejected despite medical evidence supporting their need.

The perfect storm that results in a tragedy, and this is my opinion, is caused by people not medically qualified doing these home assessments. A real doctor would spot injuries or malnutrition. A psychologist would be able to 'read' the demeanour of the child... and the parent(s).

I don't believe that any of the people who are currently doing this job fully know what they are doing. All it takes is a few that are useless at spotting the warning signs and a tragedy has a strong prospect of occurring... again.


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14 Dec 2021, 6:21 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
From my experiences as an adult with the DWP they routinely use unqualified staff to do remote assessments. We just need to look at the way people who have a legitimate need of disability benefits are often rejected despite medical evidence supporting their need.

The perfect storm that results in a tragedy, and this is my opinion, is caused by people not medically qualified doing these home assessments. A real doctor would spot injuries or malnutrition. A psychologist would be able to 'read' the demeanour of the child... and the parent(s).

I don't believe that any of the people who are currently doing this job fully know what they are doing. All it takes is a few that are useless at spotting the warning signs and a tragedy has a strong prospect of occurring... again.


This is a very good point. Abusers can also appeal to vanity and portray themselves as victims, to gain pity and avoid being seen as abusive. I've experienced this, when caregivers would constantly go on about all the sacrifices they made, and how difficult the abused person was. But none of my coworkers wanted to see that.



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14 Dec 2021, 9:35 am

maycontainthunder wrote:
I don't believe that any of the people who are currently doing this job fully know what they are doing. All it takes is a few that are useless at spotting the warning signs and a tragedy has a strong prospect of occurring... again.

That's my experience of "professionals" in general. In a word, they're incompetent. They often don't know what to do, so they guess. Plus they're often incentivised to make or save money for whoever they're working for. And their judgement is often clouded by personal bias. And they don't want to work any harder than they have to. But they won't admit to any of that, because jobs are scarce and when it's a conflict between conscience and livelihood, the livelihood usually wins. It's like a breath of fresh air to find a professional who's worthy of the name.



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14 Dec 2021, 11:01 pm

When an adult is a victim of abuse himself/herself, it tends to make him/her blind to the abuse that children suffer, because in order to recognize the abuse of these children, the adult needs to first recognize the abuse that he/she suffered back when he/she was a child, but most adults are unwilling or unable to do this.

If light forms of abuse and psychological violence/force are included, then almost all adults are victims of abuse. That's why they struggle to recognize cases of child abuse. It's too scary for them to acknowledge that they themselves are also victims of abuse or force to some degree.



Dandansson
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15 Dec 2021, 3:19 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
maycontainthunder wrote:
I don't believe that any of the people who are currently doing this job fully know what they are doing. All it takes is a few that are useless at spotting the warning signs and a tragedy has a strong prospect of occurring... again.

That's my experience of "professionals" in general. In a word, they're incompetent. They often don't know what to do, so they guess. Plus they're often incentivised to make or save money for whoever they're working for. And their judgement is often clouded by personal bias. And they don't want to work any harder than they have to. But they won't admit to any of that, because jobs are scarce and when it's a conflict between conscience and livelihood, the livelihood usually wins. It's like a breath of fresh air to find a professional who's worthy of the name.

Yeah, "professionals" really do have their difficulties. I tend to question them a lot and I do this even if they are good. They always show their weaknesses sooner or later.



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15 Dec 2021, 2:59 pm

Unless I'm mistaken they always put newly qualified social workers straight into child protection. I can't remember properly but I'm pretty certain thats what I was told when I was at college. If this is the case then a lot of these newly qualified people will still be quite young and maybe quite easily manipulated by the likes of these child abusers. Also I saw on the news this morning that a lot of people who go into social work actually leave after a few years. This tells me that they may be in a situation where they do want to help but there is far too much red tape and so they are actually not able or at liberty (by law) to do the job in protecting children.

I hated my social worker when I was a kid. She just used to assume things about me and write up a report based on that rather than actually talking to me and getting to know what was going on. This kind of thing also goes on as well.



Joe90
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15 Dec 2021, 4:52 pm

Yes but I didn't think NT adults needed to be trained to read body language. Some Aspies claim that NTs can even tell emotions people are hiding or covering up.

I just thought that if NTs are as excellent with reading body language as many Aspies here make out they are then there'd be no abuse anywhere because any NT would tell that another NT is an abuser just by watching them walk or something.


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