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AngelL
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13 Dec 2021, 4:04 pm

I could use some clarification, please. I keep reading threads that seem to conflate masking and socializing a bit; perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I mask pretty much 24/7. I was diagnosed two months ago today and am just trying to find my equilibrium. Understanding that these behaviors and traits that I've been hiding aren't character defects but are part and parcel of how I was made has been a lot to digest. I've been trying to unmask but the more I do that, the less able I am to socialize. That's not really a problem for me because I have no desire to socialize but it seems that I'm putting down the very ability that so many here are trying to pick up.

I am a people magnet. The way I interact in public has just about everyone I come in contact with want to become my friend. That's not hyperbole. I've had therapists that I have been in a therapeutic relationship with ask me out, and in one case, move me in with her. As a young man, I was on probation and would regularly spend the night at my probation officer's home. I moved in with my teacher three weeks after we started dating. When you realize the professional boundaries they ignored and the careers they risked, it's mind-blowing. Incidentally, I never wanted to get involved with any of them - but the personality I presented to the world was as far away from 'authentic me' as you could get, had no concept of my inherent right to set a boundary, and naively expected their position to shield me.

I guess my question is, when people are asking how to make friends or date around here, are they asking how to 'act' in order to be successful? Or are they asking how to be their authentic selves and be successful?

I have no idea how to do the latter, but if it's the former, I can probably help someone with that. To be honest, I'd feel badly doing so because I think it's a miserable way to live - but to each their own.



Mona Pereth
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14 Dec 2021, 3:40 pm

AngelL wrote:
I guess my question is, when people are asking how to make friends or date around here, are they asking how to 'act' in order to be successful? Or are they asking how to be their authentic selves and be successful?

This varies, both with the individual asking the question and the people who answer it.

AngelL wrote:
I have no idea how to do the latter, but if it's the former, I can probably help someone with that. To be honest, I'd feel badly doing so because I think it's a miserable way to live - but to each their own.

I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested in what you say about how you made yourself a "people magnet."


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AngelL
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15 Dec 2021, 8:41 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested in what you say about how you made yourself a "people magnet."


I don't know, Mona. It's been a couple of days and you're the only one who commented - and you suggested that 'a lot of people' rather than saying that you personally would be interested. Anyway, I'll take a tentative step into the waters and give it a go. If anyone wants more - or to have a discussion about it, just give a quick response and I'll talk more about it. I was trying to figure out where to even begin to open a dialogue about this and finding that it’s rather daunting. While I’m trying to determine where to begin, I thought I’d throw this example out there as a snapshot of how I do this:

I received a text this morning from someone I know from a twelve-step program that I am a member of. The text was short and to the point:

Quote:
Light and love to you!


Do you respond? If you do, how do you respond? Here was my response:

Quote:
I could use a little ‘light’ this holiday season! My clothes are starting to get a little tight. :P


Certainly not my best work, but I was busy at the time and I didn’t expect to use it as an example when I replied. So why did I reply this way? It’s the holiday season and people are more apt to reach out during this season. Most humans are looking to make connections with other humans and ‘aloneness’ is harder to bear for most people during this time. One easy way to connect is through humor. Personally, I tend toward self-deprecating material so as not to risk hurting someone’s feelings. I made a play on the word ‘light’ to explain that I’m putting on a little weight during the holiday season. Why did I go that route?

First of all, it’s relatable for almost everyone. Nearly everyone puts on a few pounds over the holidays and even those who don’t (Ironically, like me) will still ‘get it’. But there’s another reason I went with that. I don’t know her extraordinarily well but I know some things. I know she’s a thirty-something single mom raising a four-year-old daughter. I know that she moved in with her parents last year after her and her daughter’s dad divorced. She’s got an addictive past, though she’s been clean since she got pregnant. I know too that she replaced drugs with food and has struggled significantly with her weight, never taking off the weight she gained during her pregnancy and actually put some more on.

A shared laugh never fails as a way to connect. I made it safe for her by directing the joke toward myself. Then I chose humor that she could relate to, not only as a member of society but also personally. She responded back immediately:

Quote:
Oh my gawd, me too!! !


Personally, I was hoping for a smiley emoticon so the interaction could be over but I’m not going to let this comment be the end. It’s not that big of a deal; but like I said, she struggles with her weight. Her response was knee-jerk but I wouldn’t be surprised if she started feeling a bit vulnerable the moment she hit send. Therefore, I’m going to attend to her feelings. It’s not my job, and I know that, but subconsciously, she’s going to appreciate me doing so – even if she doesn’t know why she’s going walk away from this exchange thinking, “I always feel better after talking to him”.

Quote:
Whatever! On your worst day you STILL look better than me on my best day! Pfft! Give Brittney a hug for me, please…got to run – doctor’s appointment!


Once again, self-deprecating humor. Follow-through with a compliment – and what mother doesn’t love it when a person asks after or shows (safe) affection for their child? I did have a doctor’s appointment although it wasn’t for another five hours – The ‘got to run’ was because it was a good point to stop. The doctor’s appointment just gave me a relatable reason for leaving.

I know this is just a text and that’s a far cry from an in-person conversation but it does show some of my thinking and how I arrive at my part of the conversation.



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17 Dec 2021, 1:22 am

AngelL wrote:
I don't know, Mona. It's been a couple of days and you're the only one who commented - and you suggested that 'a lot of people' rather than saying that you personally would be interested.

Yes I personally was curious, but it seemed likely to me that I would not be the only one, since a lot of people here have asked for advice on this very topic. I didn't yet know whether what you might have to say would be useful to me, but I figured it would likely be useful to someone out there, if not to me.

Anyhow, I personally have never put much effort into trying to find a humorous angle to everything, nor is this something that comes natural to me most of the time either, although occasionally a joke will pop into my head.

The way you describe how you socialize, it does seem like you are putting on a performance for everyone. How much of a "mask" this is would depend on how much effort you have to put into it. Is it effortful for you, or does it come naturally to you?

Personally, my own approach to socializing has always been quite different. Usually, I've sought out people with common interests that we could enjoy talking about without putting on a performance for each other.

AngelL wrote:
I've been trying to unmask but the more I do that, the less able I am to socialize. That's not really a problem for me because I have no desire to socialize but it seems that I'm putting down the very ability that so many here are trying to pick up.

It seems to me that there's a big difference between just having an ability and feeling compelled to use that ability all the time, even when one doesn't want to. Having an ability can be very good. Feeling compelled to use it all the time, not so good.


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17 Dec 2021, 4:59 am

AngelL wrote:
I could use some clarification, please. I keep reading threads that seem to conflate masking and socializing a bit; perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I mask pretty much 24/7. I was diagnosed two months ago today and am just trying to find my equilibrium. Understanding that these behaviors and traits that I've been hiding aren't character defects but are part and parcel of how I was made has been a lot to digest. I've been trying to unmask but the more I do that, the less able I am to socialize. That's not really a problem for me because I have no desire to socialize but it seems that I'm putting down the very ability that so many here are trying to pick up.

I am a people magnet. The way I interact in public has just about everyone I come in contact with want to become my friend. That's not hyperbole. I've had therapists that I have been in a therapeutic relationship with ask me out, and in one case, move me in with her. As a young man, I was on probation and would regularly spend the night at my probation officer's home. I moved in with my teacher three weeks after we started dating. When you realize the professional boundaries they ignored and the careers they risked, it's mind-blowing. Incidentally, I never wanted to get involved with any of them - but the personality I presented to the world was as far away from 'authentic me' as you could get, had no concept of my inherent right to set a boundary, and naively expected their position to shield me.

I guess my question is, when people are asking how to make friends or date around here, are they asking how to 'act' in order to be successful? Or are they asking how to be their authentic selves and be successful?

I have no idea how to do the latter, but if it's the former, I can probably help someone with that. To be honest, I'd feel badly doing so because I think it's a miserable way to live - but to each their own.


I can relate a lot to your experience attracting people. I am a magnet for many people, whom I often have no interest in. I realized over time that most people don't like themselves, and feel unloved. Because I'm quiet, they project onto me, and perceive a lack of interest as deep patience and care, basically because they are starved for attention, affection, and love. Or, some just wish to exploit me. Despite their supposed empathy and social skills, most NTs really don't seem to get a long.

With my own masking, I suppose I was trying to be successful, thinking I was becoming a better version of me. In reality, I was being myself in a way totally unnatural to me, which was physically and emotionally painful. I think it also led to a certain level of anger and sarcasm, which was not a good trait. But this is the outcome of not really being yourself. You become resentful and bitter. I'm learning to accept my own way of socializing, instead. What NTs call socializing or social skills are just the things which give them pleasure--which they are made for. It's stupid for us to be held up to that standard.

I also thinking masking can lead to attracting unwanted people, too. And these needy vampires are so difficult to get rid of.



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17 Dec 2021, 9:08 am

HighLlama wrote:
And these needy vampires are so difficult to get rid of.

Have you tried introducing your "needy vampires" to each other?


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17 Dec 2021, 9:19 am

I'm a people magnet too. Just one that repels more than attracts.

I am fascinated by people who do have that 'magnetism' about them though. I've met a few in my life. I always considered that it was something natural to them. I know people teach charisma and things but I've always suspected that its more than just the way you act and the things you say. I feel like there's something else going on that the magnetism effect is more than the sum of its parts. Some people are just the bees knees and everyone senses it.

But you're saying this is a total construction on your part. How did you know what to do? By observing others? I'd be interested to know.

Also if you could maybe describe some of the things you do that contribute to this effect you have on people?


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HighLlama
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17 Dec 2021, 4:45 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
And these needy vampires are so difficult to get rid of.

Have you tried introducing your "needy vampires" to each other?


No, but good idea. I should start a Meetup group :P



AngelL
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18 Dec 2021, 5:50 pm

HighLlama wrote:
I can relate a lot to your experience attracting people. I am a magnet for many people, whom I often have no interest in.


I've recently had significant insights in many areas of my life; this is one such area. In the event you find this the least bit interesting... I've recently come to understand that when I created masks to survive the bullies, I did so by becoming someone they didn't want to beat the heck out of daily. An unforeseen consequence of this however, is that I did such a good job that the kind of people who tormented me, liked the masked me so much that they then wanted to be around me all the time.

HighLlama wrote:
I realized over time that most people don't like themselves, and feel unloved.


Absolutely; 100%.

HighLlama wrote:
Because I'm quiet, they project onto me, and perceive a lack of interest as deep patience and care, basically because they are starved for attention, affection, and love.


Fascinating! I did the exact opposite. I am the most introverted person I know, and I presented boisterous and fun-loving. However, I couldn't agree more with your assessment that they are starving for attention, affection and love.

HighLlama wrote:
With my own masking, I suppose I was trying to be successful, thinking I was becoming a better version of me. In reality, I was being myself in a way totally unnatural to me, which was physically and emotionally painful. I think it also led to a certain level of anger and sarcasm, which was not a good trait. But this is the outcome of not really being yourself. You become resentful and bitter. I'm learning to accept my own way of socializing, instead. What NTs call socializing or social skills are just the things which give them pleasure--which they are made for. It's stupid for us to be held up to that standard.


I've recently come to understand that an underlying driving force that led to masking - the foundation, if you will, was the deep desire to 'be good'. From early childhood, every neurodiverse trait I exhibited was 'bad', and I was a 'bad boy' for behaving that way. In my attempt to 'be good', I rejected every personality characteristic that met with hostility. Some were autistic traits, some were just regular old personality traits - but I wasn't trying to discern, I was trying to stay alive. Too, I can relate to the anger. While people who have spent a lot of time around me for decades would tell you they've never seen me even a little bit angry in all that time, there was a silent rage that drove every word, action, and thought.



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18 Dec 2021, 6:04 pm

^You really made my day :) I never thought anyone would understand. Thank you!



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18 Dec 2021, 7:02 pm

My experience in jobs or other places where I have to be around a lot of people (E.g. college or school etc) is that I can only keep up the masking for a couple of years before thinsg start to break down and the real me starts to be exposed, and then the reall issues (E.g. bullying) start. And I am not just talking about one person bullying which I may have had even while masking. I am talking about an entire classroom of people bullying me at the same time which is terrifying.
So I have always tried to leave a job at the first sign when I notice any cracks appearing in the masking. I have always done that. Made any excuse to get out and would never really say the truth, but to be honest, back then I did not know why as I did not know it was called masking. I just knew it was a thing which when it broke, I was exposed and the bullying would start.


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18 Dec 2021, 7:14 pm

HighLlama wrote:
Because I'm quiet, they project onto me, and perceive a lack of interest as deep patience and care, basically because they are starved for attention, affection, and love. Or, some just wish to exploit me.


THIS.

I draw quite a bit of attention to myself as well, HL. Some of it is positive attention because people see me as bookish or smart, even fun because I act younger than my age. Unfortunately most of it comes at a cost when people get to know my sensitive side. They expect emotional labour and empathetic support, but they don't return the favour. Sometimes I'm exploited for money. Sometimes for my life experience. Sometimes in more criminal ways. Heaven forbid I draw a line or set boundaries with people because I think the care-highway is only supposed to go one direction. I've never quite understood the rules. If I get any care in return it's usually patronising and I feel infantilised. When I go mute I'm perceived as cold. When I speak I sometimes infodump, so then I'm perceived as weird. If I speak up for myself I'm pushy. If I don't, I'm compromised.

It's really difficult to find that balance.

In terms of the OP I don't know what to say. I put in my time trying to act normal for many years so I could earn a living, but it's not like I fooled anyone. I don't know if I've ever passed as NT in public or in a social setting; it's just that no one knew what to call my difference at the time.



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18 Dec 2021, 7:25 pm

AngelL wrote:
I guess my question is, when people are asking how to make friends or date around here, are they asking how to 'act' in order to be successful? Or are they asking how to be their authentic selves and be successful?


I can only speak for myself, but my challenges are with authentic behaviour. I don't really bother with masking apart from trying to act polite in public (e.g., following the basic rules of etiquette or keeping a low profile). If I ever refer to masking I'm not talking about hanging out with people and pretending I'm like them. I'm referring to everyday skills like - how to make a business phone call, how to go to an appointment without having a sensory meltdown, how to manage my anxiety when I leave the house, how to be a homeowner and a mother, how to make verbal conversation with my immediate family on Christmas, or how to spend a few days at my boyfriend's without flipping out because of a noise, a scent, or a texture.

If I could manage those types of behaviours, I'd be one happy lady.



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19 Dec 2021, 8:24 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
If I speak up for myself I'm pushy. If I don't, I'm compromised.


I agree with much of your post, but this is one that always bothers me. Either I'm too blunt or rude--or demanding--or I need to be more assertive. Yet, we're supposed to be the black and white thinkers :lol: I also find people tend to ignore the polite version of something, but get offended when you become less polite. :evil: Pick one!!



AngelL
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19 Dec 2021, 10:25 am

HighLlama wrote:
^You really made my day :) I never thought anyone would understand. Thank you!


I sure can relate to this sentiment. I am so used to not being able to communicate my experience of the world to someone else, that it feels utterly surreal when someone 'gets it'. I'm really happy I could participate in your experience of being understood! :)

DuckHairback wrote:
But you're saying this is a total construction on your part. How did you know what to do? By observing others? I'd be interested to know.

Also if you could maybe describe some of the things you do that contribute to this effect you have on people?


Absolutely. It is turning out longer than I thought; I'm working on it now, but I wanted to let you know it was coming - probably before the end of the day.

Mountain Goat wrote:
My experience in jobs or other places where I have to be around a lot of people (E.g. college or school etc) is that I can only keep up the masking for a couple of years before things start to break down and the real me starts to be exposed, and then the real issues (E.g. bullying) start.


Fifty-one weeks is my record. I took a job where the owner's only reluctance in hiring me was that I'd leave after a couple of months, so I gave him my word I would stay at least a year. After fifty-one weeks I used my accrued sick time to take the last week off, and at the end of that week I was 3000 miles away. For me, it wasn't bullying that would start...people would start to worry about me because I wasn't able to meet the expectations they had come to develop regarding my behavior. As a result, they would try to 'help' by doing things that would exacerbate the problem - you know, not leaving me alone, doing a lot of touching - hugs, literal pats on the back, arm around my shoulder, etc.

Mountain Goat wrote:
So I have always tried to leave a job at the first sign when I notice any cracks appearing in the masking. I have always done that.


Amen. I've brought this up in the post I'm working on in another window, but there was a twenty year period that I worked on the road, moving to a new 'job site' when a new crack would appear, or other related issues. For that 20-year period, I moved, on average, every seventeen days. Now that I'm stationary, I am isolating life a recluse because I have no recourse when a crack appears.



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19 Dec 2021, 10:59 am

AngelL wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
I can relate a lot to your experience attracting people. I am a magnet for many people, whom I often have no interest in.


I've recently had significant insights in many areas of my life; this is one such area. In the event you find this the least bit interesting... I've recently come to understand that when I created masks to survive the bullies, I did so by becoming someone they didn't want to beat the heck out of daily. An unforeseen consequence of this however, is that I did such a good job that the kind of people who tormented me, liked the masked me so much that they then wanted to be around me all the time.

HighLlama wrote:
I realized over time that most people don't like themselves, and feel unloved.


Absolutely; 100%.

HighLlama wrote:
Because I'm quiet, they project onto me, and perceive a lack of interest as deep patience and care, basically because they are starved for attention, affection, and love.


Fascinating! I did the exact opposite. I am the most introverted person I know, and I presented boisterous and fun-loving. However, I couldn't agree more with your assessment that they are starving for attention, affection and love.

HighLlama wrote:
With my own masking, I suppose I was trying to be successful, thinking I was becoming a better version of me. In reality, I was being myself in a way totally unnatural to me, which was physically and emotionally painful. I think it also led to a certain level of anger and sarcasm, which was not a good trait. But this is the outcome of not really being yourself. You become resentful and bitter. I'm learning to accept my own way of socializing, instead. What NTs call socializing or social skills are just the things which give them pleasure--which they are made for. It's stupid for us to be held up to that standard.


I've recently come to understand that an underlying driving force that led to masking - the foundation, if you will, was the deep desire to 'be good'. From early childhood, every neurodiverse trait I exhibited was 'bad', and I was a 'bad boy' for behaving that way. In my attempt to 'be good', I rejected every personality characteristic that met with hostility. Some were autistic traits, some were just regular old personality traits - but I wasn't trying to discern, I was trying to stay alive. Too, I can relate to the anger. While people who have spent a lot of time around me for decades would tell you they've never seen me even a little bit angry in all that time, there was a silent rage that drove every word, action, and thought.


This is all very insightful, I can relate.

When people group bully me or seem committed to misunderstanding me, I get extremely angry, silently & internally. It takes me a long time, but eventually I have to remove myself from people I care about, that seem to bully me.



Last edited by blitzkrieg on 19 Dec 2021, 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.