Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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Josh68
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08 Feb 2023, 1:55 pm

One thing we do know sure is Russia most certainly didn't sabotage their own pipeline. That makes zero sense.


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magz
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08 Feb 2023, 3:06 pm

Highlander852456 wrote:
I know Ukraine has air defense systems.
But Russia only needs to control the parts where they are actually fighting or trying to advance.
Its clear Russia is not aiming to capture all of Ukraine.

Other problem is lots of news sound like adolescent cheer-leading, wishful thinking and some sort of anti Russky propaganda.
I am not interested any of that. Most times we are not getting objective news from the front if any.
We are also getting very little news.
My impression part of not getting news is that news ground teams would be exposed in battle and die, so the news we are getting are from Ukraine military which is inherently biased. They have been caught lying several times before, and while I don't support Russian invasion Ukrainians are about as honest as Russians.

There's a more important reason for the military not to give accurate information: it would make successful attacks on them easier.
That's the very practical reason for the "fog of war", in any war.

Russia aimed for the whole Ukraine in the very beginning - they tried to replace the government in Kyiv. They failed.
Now conquering the whole Ukraine became unrealistic but more attempts in the future are rather likely, whenever Kremlin believes it's possible. Putin never hid his imperial aspirations - and during my visit to Russia back in 2008, I learned a lot of Russian citizens share imperialist sentiments, including ideas unthinkable in the West.
And the good ol' methods of repressions of those who disagree are on again.

Anachronic as it is, it's real.


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slam_thunderhide
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08 Feb 2023, 5:15 pm

Mikah wrote:
Seymour Hersh reports that the Nord Stream bombing was an American covert operation. He is not a nobody and this would be a big deal in a sane world. In the old days this would have taken years if not decades to come to light.

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... ord-stream
https://archive.is/MrAbk


Yep, Seymour Hersh is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and this is some significant work he's done here.

Of course, it was obvious to most people from the moment of the Nord Stream bombing that America had the motive to do it and Russia had none. Joe Biden and Victoria Nuland were even on record in early 2022 warning that if Russia invaded Ukraine, then Nord Stream would not go ahead.

I remember a few months ago reading about how US economist and former advisor to the UN Secretary General Jeffrey Sachs appeared on TV and blamed America for the bombing, before he got yanked off air.

And now Seymour Hersh has done the work in explaining the 'who' and the 'how' of the operation.



Last edited by Cornflake on 08 Feb 2023, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a personal attack

Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 6:17 pm

Highlander852456 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
As far as I know Russia has areal control.


They don’t. They are afraid to fly in Ukraine because they did not and cannot destroy Ukraine’s aerial defenses.


I know Ukraine has air defense systems.
But Russia only needs to control the parts where they are actually fighting or trying to advance.


Thankfully, the Russians are no longer in a position to kill civilians directly with aircraft because they have limited aerial capability these days.

Highlander852456 wrote:
Its clear Russia is not aiming to capture all of Ukraine.

Only because they can't.

Highlander852456 wrote:
Other problem is lots of news sound like adolescent cheer-leading, wishful thinking and some sort of anti Russky propaganda.


Russia invades a sovereign nation, murdering an raping as they go.
What decent person WOULDN'T be supportive of the Ukrainians? :scratch:

Highlander852456 wrote:
I am not interested any of that. Most times we are not getting objective news from the front if any.
We are also getting very little news.
My impression part of not getting news is that news ground teams would be exposed in battle and die, so the news we are getting are from Ukraine military which is inherently biased. They have been caught lying several times before, and while I don't support Russian invasion Ukrainians are about as honest as Russians.


Look at it this way:
Ukraine may have questionable credibility at times...
But pootin has none...

"Glory to Ukraine." 8)



Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 6:19 pm

Mikah wrote:
Seymour Hersh reports that the Nord Stream bombing was an American covert operation. He is not a nobody and this would be a big deal in a sane world. In the old days this would have taken years if not decades to come to light.

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... ord-stream
https://archive.is/MrAbk



That is one OPINION, yes.
If there was hard evidence it would be presented.
Hence this falls into the realm of SPECULATION. 8)



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08 Feb 2023, 6:39 pm

slam_thunderhide wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Seymour Hersh reports that the Nord Stream bombing was an American covert operation. He is not a nobody and this would be a big deal in a sane world. In the old days this would have taken years if not decades to come to light.

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how ... ord-stream
https://archive.is/MrAbk


Yep, Seymour Hersh is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and this is some significant work he's done here.

Of course, it was obvious to most people from the moment of the Nord Stream bombing that America had the motive to do it and Russia had none. Joe Biden and Victoria Nuland were even on record in early 2022 warning that if Russia invaded Ukraine, then Nord Stream would not go ahead.


You obviously missed the part where it was proposed, at the time, that pootin DID have a motivation.
Plz don't misrepresent the situation.

Saying "Nord Stream would not go ahead" does not implicitly mean sabotage would be involved.
Diplomatic/political measures were ALWAYS available.
You have a limited imagination, here.

To me, it is an absurdity that Biden, being an ultra-dove in many areas, would ruffle the feathers by hinting America would engage in the destruction of sovereign infrastructure.

slam_thunderhide wrote:
I remember a few months ago reading about how US economist and former advisor to the UN Secretary General Jeffrey Sachs appeared on TV and blamed America for the bombing, before he got yanked off air.

And now Seymour Hersh has done the work in explaining the 'who' and the 'how' of the operation.


You do realise the difference between "speculation" and "evidence", right?



Highlander852456
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08 Feb 2023, 6:46 pm

Pepe wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
TenMinutes wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
As far as I know Russia has areal control.


They don’t. They are afraid to fly in Ukraine because they did not and cannot destroy Ukraine’s aerial defenses.


I know Ukraine has air defense systems.
But Russia only needs to control the parts where they are actually fighting or trying to advance.


Thankfully, the Russians are no longer in a position to kill civilians directly with aircraft because they have limited aerial capability these days.

Highlander852456 wrote:
Its clear Russia is not aiming to capture all of Ukraine.

Only because they can't.

Highlander852456 wrote:
Other problem is lots of news sound like adolescent cheer-leading, wishful thinking and some sort of anti Russky propaganda.


Russia invades a sovereign nation, murdering an raping as they go.
What decent person WOULDN'T be supportive of the Ukrainians? :scratch:

Highlander852456 wrote:
I am not interested any of that. Most times we are not getting objective news from the front if any.
We are also getting very little news.
My impression part of not getting news is that news ground teams would be exposed in battle and die, so the news we are getting are from Ukraine military which is inherently biased. They have been caught lying several times before, and while I don't support Russian invasion Ukrainians are about as honest as Russians.


Look at it this way:
Ukraine may have questionable credibility at times...
But pootin has none...

"Glory to Ukraine." 8)


I got nothing against what you say, but my beef is that we have very little information that would make sense anyway.
Its easy to create impressions of us knowing about the war, rather hard to see a clear picture if you realize the few articles that we have are really not that informative overall.

Though I agree for sake of Ukrainian operations we should not know everything.



Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm

magz wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
I know Ukraine has air defense systems.
But Russia only needs to control the parts where they are actually fighting or trying to advance.
Its clear Russia is not aiming to capture all of Ukraine.

Other problem is lots of news sound like adolescent cheer-leading, wishful thinking and some sort of anti Russky propaganda.
I am not interested any of that. Most times we are not getting objective news from the front if any.
We are also getting very little news.
My impression part of not getting news is that news ground teams would be exposed in battle and die, so the news we are getting are from Ukraine military which is inherently biased. They have been caught lying several times before, and while I don't support Russian invasion Ukrainians are about as honest as Russians.

There's a more important reason for the military not to give accurate information: it would make successful attacks on them easier.
That's the very practical reason for the "fog of war", in any war.

Russia aimed for the whole Ukraine in the very beginning - they tried to replace the government in Kyiv. They failed.
Now conquering the whole Ukraine became unrealistic but more attempts in the future are rather likely, whenever Kremlin believes it's possible. Putin never hid his imperial aspirations - and during my visit to Russia back in 2008, I learned a lot of Russian citizens share imperialist sentiments, including ideas unthinkable in the West.
And the good ol' methods of repressions of those who disagree are on again.

Anachronic as it is, it's real.


Of course, Russia has a right to subjugate sovereign nations to glorify a psychopathic murdering bastardo.
I am with pootin.
Make Russia great again!

For those who haven't picked it up, yes, I am being sarcastic. :mrgreen:



Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 6:48 pm

Josh68 wrote:
One thing we do know sure is Russia most certainly didn't sabotage their own pipeline. That makes zero sense.


That is simply your OPINION. 8)
Some would disagree.



Highlander852456
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08 Feb 2023, 6:49 pm

magz wrote:
Highlander852456 wrote:
I know Ukraine has air defense systems.
But Russia only needs to control the parts where they are actually fighting or trying to advance.
Its clear Russia is not aiming to capture all of Ukraine.

Other problem is lots of news sound like adolescent cheer-leading, wishful thinking and some sort of anti Russky propaganda.
I am not interested any of that. Most times we are not getting objective news from the front if any.
We are also getting very little news.
My impression part of not getting news is that news ground teams would be exposed in battle and die, so the news we are getting are from Ukraine military which is inherently biased. They have been caught lying several times before, and while I don't support Russian invasion Ukrainians are about as honest as Russians.

There's a more important reason for the military not to give accurate information: it would make successful attacks on them easier.
That's the very practical reason for the "fog of war", in any war.

Russia aimed for the whole Ukraine in the very beginning - they tried to replace the government in Kyiv. They failed.
Now conquering the whole Ukraine became unrealistic but more attempts in the future are rather likely, whenever Kremlin believes it's possible. Putin never hid his imperial aspirations - and during my visit to Russia back in 2008, I learned a lot of Russian citizens share imperialist sentiments, including ideas unthinkable in the West.
And the good ol' methods of repressions of those who disagree are on again.

Anachronic as it is, it's real.


No you make perfect point of fog of war all in all I was thinking this too, but I think my point is we are kind of blind and missing any nuance of war and what is happening.

For instance I find it bizzare how Zelensky is reporting certain things and about how Ukraine is kicking ass, when one fifth of Ukraine is now apparently under control of Russia.
Just goes to show things dont add up. People find these things then problematic to believe.



Highlander852456
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08 Feb 2023, 6:56 pm

Pepe wrote:
Josh68 wrote:
One thing we do know sure is Russia most certainly didn't sabotage their own pipeline. That makes zero sense.


That is simply your OPINION. 8)
Some would disagree.


Give me one good reason why would they do it in first place.



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08 Feb 2023, 7:40 pm

Pepe wrote:
That is one OPINION, yes.
If there was hard evidence it would be presented.
Hence this falls into the realm of SPECULATION. 8)


It is neither opinion nor speculation. It's reportedly coming from a source who is inside and was there at key moments. The story his source tells is plausible and again it's not some random journalist. Hersh is old school, battle scarred and decorated - look at his wiki page and see some of the things he has broken and/or covered since 1969.

It's a pretty good bet he's got a scoop here.


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Josh68
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08 Feb 2023, 8:21 pm

Pepe wrote:
Josh68 wrote:
One thing we do know sure is Russia most certainly didn't sabotage their own pipeline. That makes zero sense.





That is simply your OPINION. 8)
Some would disagree.


Sure, it's my opinion. If you could present a valid counter argument to that opinion then I'm all ears. Why would a country sabotage a crucial piece of their economy to hurt European NATO countries when they could easily simply turn off the spigot or limit production. The former just doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny by any stretch of the imagination.


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08 Feb 2023, 9:13 pm

Highlander852456 wrote:

I got nothing against what you say, but my beef is that we have very little information that would make sense anyway.
Its easy to create impressions of us knowing about the war, rather hard to see a clear picture if you realize the few articles that we have are really not that informative overall.

Though I agree for sake of Ukrainian operations we should not know everything.


My grandpappy skunk used to say:
"In the absence of the facts, speculation reigns supreme."
Having a rational, objective mind focused on finding the Truth, plus life wisdom, helps. 8)



Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 9:23 pm

Josh68 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Josh68 wrote:
One thing we do know sure is Russia most certainly didn't sabotage their own pipeline. That makes zero sense.





That is simply your OPINION. 8)
Some would disagree.


Sure, it's my opinion. If you could present a valid counter argument to that opinion then I'm all ears. Why would a country sabotage a crucial piece of their economy to hurt European NATO countries when they could easily simply turn off the spigot or limit production. The former just doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny by any stretch of the imagination.


One of the theories/fears, at the time, was that pootin was sending a message to the world...
That other ocean infrastructure could be covertly damaged/destroyed.

Another was that pootin was threatening to freeze nations into submission, during the winter months that were approaching at the time.
Thankfully, other alternate power/energy supplies were hastily obtained to reduce the impact of pootin's ongoing blackmail.



Pepe
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08 Feb 2023, 9:30 pm

Mikah wrote:
Pepe wrote:
That is one OPINION, yes.
If there was hard evidence it would be presented.
Hence this falls into the realm of SPECULATION. 8)


It is neither opinion nor speculation. It's reportedly coming from a source who is inside and was there at key moments. The story his source tells is plausible and again it's not some random journalist. Hersh is old school, battle scarred and decorated - look at his wiki page and see some of the things he has broken and/or covered since 1969.

It's a pretty good bet he's got a scoop here.


But where is the EVIDENCE?
Without that, we have speculation/opinion.
There are other plausible "Conspiracy Theories".

What Biden said regarding this in the video presented above, is merely an INTERPRETATION with no definitive answers.
He did not say: "We will destroy the pipeline if Germany/pootin does not comply." 8)