Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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funeralxempire
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23 Mar 2023, 9:35 am

Honey69 wrote:
InTheWild wrote:

It's not that simple. If you poke a bear long enough, it's going to attack. This invasion was 30 years in the making. Now it's time to end this madness and stop all the death and destruction.


You're saying that Ukraine somehow "provoke" Putin to attack? Thirty years ago?

Putin is a disgusting piece of and corruption. He needs to go. To prison.


Not being a corrupt satellite like Belarus is quite the unbearable provocation, doncha'no?


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Honey69
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23 Mar 2023, 9:37 am

Mikah wrote:
Apparently that error most often occurs when using certain VPNs.

I'm not using a VPN.

Mikah wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Macgregor

He holds opinions that differ from ones held by fashionistas, so yes I suppose in your book that would count as "misinformation". If you can't get the link to work I posted a two-part video interview of his a few pages ago.

Quote:
...Macgregor has appeared as a regular guest on Fox News, with at least 60 Fox weekday appearances from August 2017 to early 2022, including 48 on Tucker Carlson’s show. Carlson regularly praises on Macgregor, describing him as “our first choice for foreign policy analysis” and “one of the people we trust to give us real information". According to Media Matters for America, it was this which got Macgregor on to the radar of President Donald Trump. In May 2019, on the Carlson show, Macgregor urged Trump to replace senior national security officials, describing them as “part of this bipartisan globalist elite”...


The Fox Noise Machine is nothing but lies and anti-American propaganda. I wouldn't trust anything that this clown had to say about anything.


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Honey69
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23 Mar 2023, 9:42 am

It looks like one of Putin's mercenary groups is going to be pulling out of Ukraine. Focusing on doing Putin's dirty work in Africa instead.

https://news.yahoo.com/putin-mercenary- ... _test=0_00


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InTheWild
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23 Mar 2023, 9:43 am

Honey69 wrote:
InTheWild wrote:

It's not that simple. If you poke a bear long enough, it's going to attack. This invasion was 30 years in the making. Now it's time to end this madness and stop all the death and destruction.


You're saying that Ukraine somehow "provoke" Putin to attack? Thirty years ago?

Putin is a disgusting piece of and corruption. He needs to go. To prison.


I'm saying NATO expansion to the borders of Russia was a huge factor. We assured Gorbachev that NATO wouldn't expand one inch beyond the border of a reunified Germany.

There's a lot of corruption in the world, we're neck deep in it. We're being lied to constantly by our media. Putin ain't a good guy, but neither are any of the world leaders. They don't care care about dead Ukrainians. They don't care about human life.



Honey69
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23 Mar 2023, 9:52 am

InTheWild wrote:

I'm saying NATO expansion to the borders of Russia was a huge factor. We assured Gorbachev that NATO wouldn't expand one inch beyond the border of a reunified Germany.


So far, Putin is only attacking non-NATO countries. If Ukraine had joined NATO, then he would have left Ukraine alone. And, since his attack, Sweden and Finland have moved to join NATO. Putin is a madman.

InTheWild wrote:
There's a lot of corruption in the world, we're neck deep in it. We're being lied to constantly by our media. Putin ain't a good guy, but neither are any of the world leaders. They don't care care about dead Ukrainians. They don't care about human life.

Especially Putin. He is a killer. He even murders journalists. He must be stopped.


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funeralxempire
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23 Mar 2023, 9:55 am

InTheWild wrote:
We assured Gorbachev that NATO wouldn't expand one inch beyond the border of a reunified Germany.


This claim keeps being trotted out, so let's see what's been written about it:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/twq-myth- ... pring-2009

Quote:
In the latter half of the 1990s, as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was preparing to expand its membership for the first time since the admission of Spain in 1982, Russian officials claimed that the entry of former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO would violate a solemn ‘‘pledge’’ made by the governments of West Germany and the United States in 1990 not to bring any former Communist states into the alliance.1 Anatolii Adamishin, who was Soviet deputy foreign minister in 1990, claimed in 1997 that ‘‘we were told during the German reunification process that NATO would not expand.’’ Other former Soviet officials, including Mikhail Gorbachev, made similar assertions in 1996—1997. Some Western analysts and former officials, including Jack F. Matlock, who was the U.S. ambassador to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) in 1990, endorsed this view, arguing that Gorbachev received a ‘‘clear commitment that if Germany united, and stayed in NATO, the borders of NATO would not move eastward.’’ Pointing to comments recorded by the journalists Michael Beschloss and Strobe Talbott, former U.S. defense secretary Robert McNamara averred that ‘‘the United States pledged never to expand NATO eastward if Moscow would agree to the unification of Germany.’’ According to this view, ‘‘the Clinton administration reneged on that commitment . . . when it decided to expand NATO to Eastern Europe.’’

These assertions were sharply challenged at the time by other observers, including former U.S. policymakers who played a direct role in the German reunification process. George H. W. Bush, Brent Scowcroft, and James A. Baker, who served as president, national security adviser, and secretary of state in 1990 respectively, all firmly denied that the topic of extending NATO membership to former Warsaw Pact countries (other than East Germany) even came up during the negotiations with Moscow on German reunification, much less that the United States made a ‘‘pledge’’ not to pursue it. In 1997, Philip Zelikow, who in 1990 was a senior official on the National Security Council (NSC) staff responsible for German reunification issues, maintained that the United States made no commitment at all about the future shape of NATO, apart from some specific points about eastern Germany that were codified in the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany signed in September 1990. ‘‘The option of adding new members to NATO,’’ Zelikow wrote, was ‘‘not foreclosed by the deal actually made in 1990.’’



Or: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... v-says-no/

Quote:
What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR. I was a deputy director on the State Department’s Soviet desk at the time, and that was certainly the point of Secretary James Baker’s discussions with Gorbachev and his foreign minister, Eduard Shevardnadze. In 1990, few gave the possibility of a broader NATO enlargement to the east any serious thought.

The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France. Article 5 had three provisions:

Until Soviet forces had completed their withdrawal from the former GDR, only German territorial defense units not integrated into NATO would be deployed in that territory.
There would be no increase in the numbers of troops or equipment of U.S., British and French forces stationed in Berlin.
Once Soviet forces had withdrawn, German forces assigned to NATO could be deployed in the former GDR, but foreign forces and nuclear weapons systems would not be deployed there.

When one reads the full text of the Woerner speech cited by Putin, it is clear that the secretary general’s comments referred to NATO forces in eastern Germany, not a broader commitment not to enlarge the Alliance.

Former Soviet President Gorbachev’s View

We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.

Several years after German reunification, in 1997, NATO said that in the “current and foreseeable security environment” there would be no permanent stationing of substantial combat forces on the territory of new NATO members. Up until the Russian military occupation of Crimea in March, there was virtually no stationing of any NATO combat forces on the territory of new members. Since March, NATO has increased the presence of its military forces in the Baltic region and Central Europe.


So, we can stop pretending that NATO made a promise that they did not make?

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was ... arge-nato/
https://www.rferl.org/a/nato-expansion- ... 63602.html


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Last edited by funeralxempire on 23 Mar 2023, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Walrus
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23 Mar 2023, 10:01 am

InTheWild wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
InTheWild wrote:

It's not that simple. If you poke a bear long enough, it's going to attack. This invasion was 30 years in the making. Now it's time to end this madness and stop all the death and destruction.


You're saying that Ukraine somehow "provoke" Putin to attack? Thirty years ago?

Putin is a disgusting piece of and corruption. He needs to go. To prison.


I'm saying NATO expansion to the borders of Russia was a huge factor. We assured Gorbachev that NATO wouldn't expand one inch beyond the border of a reunified Germany.

No we didn’t, that was only in the context of German reunification and didn’t say anything about other countries.

NATO has always bordered Russia, because Norway has always been a NATO member.

It would obviously have been wrong to refuse to protect countries like Estonia when they asked for it. I don’t think anyone seriously believes the Russian propaganda that this was an unacceptable provocation.

As others have noted, Ukraine isn’t in NATO, but Russia’s aggression towards the former Soviet states has driven many of them to ask for Western protection.

Quote:
There's a lot of corruption in the world, we're neck deep in it. We're being lied to constantly by our media. Putin ain't a good guy, but neither are any of the world leaders. They don't care care about dead Ukrainians. They don't care about human life.

You must think we’re all idiots.

If Western world leaders didn’t care about Ukraine then they wouldn’t be protecting it from Russian aggression.



InTheWild
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23 Mar 2023, 10:37 am

The_Walrus wrote:
InTheWild wrote:
Honey69 wrote:
InTheWild wrote:

It's not that simple. If you poke a bear long enough, it's going to attack. This invasion was 30 years in the making. Now it's time to end this madness and stop all the death and destruction.


You're saying that Ukraine somehow "provoke" Putin to attack? Thirty years ago?

Putin is a disgusting piece of and corruption. He needs to go. To prison.


I'm saying NATO expansion to the borders of Russia was a huge factor. We assured Gorbachev that NATO wouldn't expand one inch beyond the border of a reunified Germany.

No we didn’t, that was only in the context of German reunification and didn’t say anything about other countries.

NATO has always bordered Russia, because Norway has always been a NATO member.

It would obviously have been wrong to refuse to protect countries like Estonia when they asked for it. I don’t think anyone seriously believes the Russian propaganda that this was an unacceptable provocation.

As others have noted, Ukraine isn’t in NATO, but Russia’s aggression towards the former Soviet states has driven many of them to ask for Western protection.

Quote:
There's a lot of corruption in the world, we're neck deep in it. We're being lied to constantly by our media. Putin ain't a good guy, but neither are any of the world leaders. They don't care care about dead Ukrainians. They don't care about human life.

You must think we’re all idiots.

If Western world leaders didn’t care about Ukraine then they wouldn’t be protecting it from Russian aggression.


I think your last paragraph is the most hilarious because it just shows you have no understanding of how the world works. Of course they have a vested interest in protecting the Ukraine, but it has nothing to do with protecting lives. The goal is to bleed Russia as much as possible, even if it pushes us to the brink of nuclear catastrophe.

You need to get your head out the propaganda you're being fed. You're young, I'm sure you'll get there. I have faith.



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23 Mar 2023, 11:24 am

InTheWild wrote:
I think your last paragraph is the most hilarious because it just shows you have no understanding of how the world works. Of course they have a vested interest in protecting the Ukraine, but it has nothing to do with protecting lives. The goal is to bleed Russia as much as possible, even if it pushes us to the brink of nuclear catastrophe.

You need to get your head out the propaganda you're being fed. You're young, I'm sure you'll get there. I have faith.


You believe that Putin should not be blamed? Another savage attack:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/de ... csid=95983


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InTheWild
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23 Mar 2023, 2:17 pm

Honey69 wrote:
InTheWild wrote:
I think your last paragraph is the most hilarious because it just shows you have no understanding of how the world works. Of course they have a vested interest in protecting the Ukraine, but it has nothing to do with protecting lives. The goal is to bleed Russia as much as possible, even if it pushes us to the brink of nuclear catastrophe.

You need to get your head out the propaganda you're being fed. You're young, I'm sure you'll get there. I have faith.


You believe that Putin should not be blamed? Another savage attack:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/de ... csid=95983


I never said he didn't commit crimes. Nobody's blameless in this conflict. Try to follow the conversation more closely.



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23 Mar 2023, 2:28 pm

What do you want the West to do? Join the war against Russia, full scale? Or, let Russia have Ukraine?


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InTheWild
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23 Mar 2023, 2:39 pm

Obviously we can't have direct confrontation with Russia. I think most sane minds in Washington and NATO countries know that. There has to be a push for a negotiated peace. Ukraine is going to run out of ammunition sometime this summer, and it can't be replaced. The U.S. and Germany have already given all we can.

It's over for Ukraine. Zelensky will be either dead or in exile when this is over. Maybe a half million dead Ukrainians had to pay for this proxy war. It's disgusting.



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23 Mar 2023, 3:56 pm

As suspected, InTheWild turned out to be an alt of a serially-banned user.

Carry on.



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23 Mar 2023, 4:53 pm

InTheWild wrote:
Obviously we can't have direct confrontation with Russia. I think most sane minds in Washington and NATO countries know that. There has to be a push for a negotiated peace.


Like Chamberlain? He thought that Hitler would be satisfied with a piece of Czechoslovakia. But, no.

I think that the West needs to show strength. If we let Putin continue, then it will only be worse for the world as he tries to gobble up more countries.

InTheWild wrote:
Ukraine is going to run out of ammunition sometime this summer, and it can't be replaced. The U.S. and Germany have already given all we can.


We just sent some tanks, didn't we? There seem to be more and more weapons heading his way.

InTheWild wrote:
It's over for Ukraine.


That's what most of us thought when Putin first launched his invasion.

InTheWild wrote:
Zelensky will be either dead or in exile when this is over.


Is Putin specifically gunning for him? Hopefully, Putin will be in prison, and Russia will have a chance to join the civilized world.

InTheWild wrote:
Maybe a half million dead Ukrainians had to pay for this proxy war. It's disgusting.


"Proxy" war? Putin ordered the invasion. Of course it is disgusting. The solution is for Russia to withdraw, and put Putin in prison.


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23 Mar 2023, 4:57 pm

@Honey69 he's gone dude, been banned, you are figuratively pissing in the wind replying to him , but at least you had the last word which is a plus point.


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23 Mar 2023, 5:51 pm

Honey69 wrote:
I'm not using a VPN.


Then I'm not sure what to suggest.

Honey69 wrote:
The Fox Noise Machine is nothing but lies and anti-American propaganda. I wouldn't trust anything that this clown had to say about anything.


Ok. Please continue to keep us informed.


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