Nobody interested in the Russia-Ukraine conflict?

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magz
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25 Jan 2023, 3:37 am

Good. Pressure on Germany worked again.
As one commenter pointed out - Ukrainians will have to deal now with a "military Babel tower", with T-72, Leopards, Challengers and Abrams, each of them built and working very differently... but better with than without, they need trained soldiers ready to use them before the mud dries in the spring.


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KitLily
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25 Jan 2023, 3:50 am

Yes! Come on tanks!

I know Britain has been training Ukrainian soldiers so hopefully everyone else has and they will be able to use the tanks. Or, the tanks will come with some crew who knows how to use them.

Hopefully this will turn the tide against Russia!


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magz
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25 Jan 2023, 4:01 am

No crews from the West. Just equipment.
These are the rules of supporting a fighting side vs entering the war.

So, now, several weeks of training for Ukrainian crews.
The delay is not that much of a problem because, unless there is a long spell of deep freezing, the "anti-tank weather" will end only in late Spring. So, hopefully, the tanks are ready to use when they can be used.


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KitLily
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25 Jan 2023, 4:04 am

Thanks for the info, Magz. I hope the Ukrainians who have been trained in the West will know enough to operate the tanks.

I'm surprised how open Britain has been about training Ukrainian soldiers. I'd keep my mouth shut if I was them. But hey, this is how stupid Britain is these days.


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magz
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25 Jan 2023, 4:10 am

KitLily wrote:
Thanks for the info, Magz. I hope the Ukrainians who have been trained in the West will know enough to operate the tanks.
They need to be trained for particular tanks. Of course, they will be.

KitLily wrote:
I'm surprised how open Britain has been about training Ukrainian soldiers. I'd keep my mouth shut if I was them. But hey, this is how stupid Britain is these days.
I don't think they actually risk much - but being a leader in arming Ukraine is a strong geopolitical leverage against i.e. Germany and France.


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25 Jan 2023, 4:12 am

KitLily wrote:
Thanks for the info, Magz. I hope the Ukrainians who have been trained in the West will know enough to operate the tanks.

I'm surprised how open Britain has been about training Ukrainian soldiers. I'd keep my mouth shut if I was them. But hey, this is how stupid Britain is these days.


Why should Britain keep it's mouth shut? Isn't it also part of NATO? Russia taking any military action against Britain or any NATO member, would be suicidal, and even Putin isn't suicidal.



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25 Jan 2023, 8:08 pm

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Update from Ukraine | The chance for Ukrainian army in Bakhmut | Abrams Tanks Approved USA❤UA
Denys Davydov
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magz
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26 Jan 2023, 3:29 am

Image
That's tanks for roughly one armoured brigade.
Still too little but it's the breakthrought we needed very, very much.


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28 Jan 2023, 5:50 am

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Poland to send 60 more tanks to Ukraine
10 hours ago

Poland has pledged to send more tanks to Ukraine to aid in the war against Russia, following Germany, Canada and the United States to support the nation.

The country’s Prime Minister says 60 of its retrofitted PT-91 tanks will be given to the Ukrainian military in addition to the 14 Leopard 2 tanks already pledged to the war effort.

Poland has regarded itself as one of Ukraine’s most steadfast allies, being the first country to provide its neighbour with 250 tanks last year.

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/g ... erallPos=9



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28 Jan 2023, 5:52 am

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Australia sending Bushmaster vehicles to Ukraine
13 hours ago

The Prime Minister has inspected Bushmaster vehicles which Australia is sending to Ukraine amid global calls for more tanks to fight Russia.

Ukraine has been requesting more assistance from Australia as it approaches one year since the beginning of the Russian invasion.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese said, “We have committed to providing 90 Bushmasters to Ukraine and there on the ground making difference each and every day to the defence of that Nation.”

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-ne ... rallPos=10



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28 Jan 2023, 8:49 am

I'm curious to see how useful these (much heavier) western tanks end up being.

I'm anticipating the PT-91s will end up being more valuable, especially compared to the older Leopard 2 variants. This is both due to the western tanks weighing more (and thereby risking damage to bridges they need to cross) as well as the PT-91s having more modern fire-control systems than the '80s era Leopard 2A4s some allies are sending.

The PT-91s are upgraded T-72s, Ukraine already has parts for them and their crews (both tank crews and maintenance) are already familiar with them and the local infrastructure is designed to handle their weight.

The chonky boys might end up proving to be less useful, but time will tell.


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magz
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28 Jan 2023, 9:01 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I'm curious to see how useful these (much heavier) western tanks end up being.

I'm anticipating the PT-91s will end up being more valuable, especially compared to the older Leopard 2 variants. This is both due to the western tanks weighing more (and thereby risking damage to bridges they need to cross) as well as the PT-91s having more modern fire-control systems than the '80s era Leopard 2A4s some allies are sending.

The problem is, we're running out of spare parts for repairing post-Soviet tanks.
So, as all the T-72 family tanks get used and damaged in the battle but their parts are produced only in Russia, our capacity of repairing them is rapidly shrinking.

The war does not seem to end any soon - so the only reasonable solution is to switch to Western tanks that can be produced and repaired in the West. When it comes to repairing, Leopards are best because their parts are available almost locally. But they need training the soldiers for entirely new machines.

Leopards have much better firing systems. Challengers are almost undestructable. Abrams tanks are designed for good firepower, great communications and interoperativity.
All don't have the main weakness of T-72s, which is storing ammo not separated from the crew, resulting in spectacular tank explosions grilling their crews.

But the main problem is, we'll run out of spare parts for post-Soviet tanks in a couple of months, so Ukrainian troops need to start training for Western tanks now to be able to switch to them before the West run out of T-72 parts.

Summing up, post-soviet tanks are good short-term because Ukrainian troops can just jump in and use them but Western tanks are the only long-term solution.


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funeralxempire
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28 Jan 2023, 9:30 am

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm curious to see how useful these (much heavier) western tanks end up being.

I'm anticipating the PT-91s will end up being more valuable, especially compared to the older Leopard 2 variants. This is both due to the western tanks weighing more (and thereby risking damage to bridges they need to cross) as well as the PT-91s having more modern fire-control systems than the '80s era Leopard 2A4s some allies are sending.

The problem is, we're running out of spare parts for repairing post-Soviet tanks.
So, as all the T-72 family tanks get used and damaged in the battle but their parts are produced only in Russia, our capacity of repairing them is rapidly shrinking.

The war does not seem to end any soon - so the only reasonable solution is to switch to Western tanks that can be produced and repaired in the West. When it comes to repairing, Leopards are best because their parts are available almost locally. But they need training the soldiers for entirely new machines.

Leopards have much better firing systems. Challengers are almost undestructable. Abrams tanks are designed for good firepower, great communications and interoperativity.
All don't have the main weakness of T-72s, which is storing ammo not separated from the crew, resulting in spectacular tank explosions grilling their crews.

But the main problem is, we'll run out of spare parts for post-Soviet tanks in a couple of months, so Ukrainian troops need to start training for Western tanks now to be able to switch to them before the West run out of T-72 parts.


Leopard 2A4s are 80s era tanks, they're not on par with 2A6s. The PT-91 program dates to the 90s.

Unless the 2A4s have received upgrades it seems unlikely they'll be superior to the PT-91, but perhaps you have access to information I haven't encountered yet.

As for ammo storage:

Image

There we see a Turkish Leopard 2 that was destroyed in Syria due to how it stores ammunition.

You raise good points with supply of spare parts.

My main point is that western tanks might not be as easily integrated as we're hoping for and that their impact might not be overwhelming. If we're expecting them to perform like the Yanks did in Iraq, we should be lowering those expectation by an order of magnitude.

We should also be prepared to supply bridge-layers and other support vehicles because a difference of 12 tonnes isn't negligible. If local infrastructure isn't adequate to support the chonky boys they won't be nearly as useful as we're hoping.

I'm not making the case that nothing should be sent, only that we should maintain reasonable expectations.


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magz
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28 Jan 2023, 9:49 am

Western tanks are not any kind of Wunderwaffe to change everything at once - but Germany agreeing to re-export them means simply a new source of tanks and this is a breakthrough.

There's only limited number of post-Soviet tanks available in the West.
Meanwhile, Russia has mobilized their industry to produce more.
So, opening new reservoirs of tanks and a possibility of continuous production even out the chances again.

Ukraine needs everything they can get and more. Leopard 2A4s are not great tanks but if Ukrainian troops are trained for Leopards, they can use them, too - while for their owners, donating them to Ukraine is a good alternative to decomissioning.
Free bonus to a bigger plan.


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28 Jan 2023, 9:42 pm

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Former Marine: Western tanks, armored vehicles will make a difference for Ukraine on the battlefield
TVP World
267K subscribers
218,027 views Jan 26, 2023 #RockRachon #UkraineWar #Ukraine
#Ukraine #Russia #UkraineWar #Leopard2MBT #AbramsMBT #RockRachon

Rock Rachon 25.01.23

Guests: Lt. Col. Hunter Ripley Rawlings

On this episode of „Rock Rachon” former Marine Corps Infantry and Reconnaissance Officer Lieutenant Colonel Hunter Ripley „Rip” Rawlings tells us about the news package of military equipment destined for Ukraine. Lt. Col. Rawlings tells us, how the western weapons and their advanced systems will push the advantage to the Ukrainian side. The package of vehicles provided by the USA is especially potent, as these vehicles have built-in the ability to safely connect with each other and optimally cooperate on the battlefield. We also talk about the German Leopard 2 MBTs, which have been finally „freed”, albeit only after the US pledged their Abrams MBTs to Ukraine...




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28 Jan 2023, 10:49 pm

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Over One Hundred Thousand Russian Soldiers Face Siege! The Russian Army Can't Save Them!
Turan Yaşar
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The war intensified in late 2022 and it was predicted that it would intensify even more in early 2023. And so it did. Serious clashes are taking place every day in the east and south of Ukraine. A new development that has not gone unnoticed is the activity on the Crimean peninsula. We will analyze what is happening there in detail together. But first, it would be better to talk about the latest developments in the eastern and southern regions where the war is raging. Let's take a look at these developments together.
The Russian occupiers are trying very hard not to withdraw from the occupied territories in the face of serious operations by the Ukrainian army. But the Russian army is not succeeding. Ukrainian air defense systems repel almost all attacks of the Russian troops and respond to the attacks in kind. For this reason, every day hundreds of Russian soldiers withdraw from the occupied territories or surrender to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
The Ukrainian Air Force recently carried out a major operation against the Russian invaders. This operation targeted the town of Makiivka in Donetsk Oblast, where the war is raging. In Makiivka, Russian troops were using a school as a temporary base. Hundreds of Russian soldiers were staying at this base. The Ukrainian army located the base and started the operation. The school used as a temporary base was targeted with missiles and artillery systems. With the successful operation of the Ukrainian Air Force, the Russian base was destroyed. The school used as a base was completely destroyed!
The basement of the base was used as an ammunition depot. This increased the intensity of the explosions and the area where the school was located turned into a fireball. According to the statement made by Ukraine, as a result of this operation, about 600 Russian soldiers were killed and tons of ammunition were destroyed. But Russia said it lost very few soldiers in this attack. Russia first said it lost 63 soldiers. Later it announced that this number had risen to 89.
An important claim was made in this development in Makiivka. According to Russia's statement, the soldiers staying at the school, which was used as a temporary base, had turned on their cell phones despite the ban. The Russian wing claimed that Ukraine had located the Russian soldiers for this reason. No statement was made by Ukraine about this allegation. Russia's statement is an admission that Russian soldiers are very inexperienced.
Bakhmut is another area where fighting has been intensifying for a long time in the Russian-Ukrainian war. A few days ago, a total of 43 clashes were fought in Bakhmut in 24 hours. Serhiy Cherevaty, the spokesman for the Eastern Group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, made a statement about what happened in Bakhmut. Cherevaty said in his statement: "A total of 281 shelling of positions and infrastructure and 43 clashes took place in one day on the Bakhmut direction of the front. The occupiers lost 107 soldiers and 123 Russian soldiers were wounded."