Difficult question - Ukraine vs Iraq

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I'm serious. I have a hard time understanding how the US invasion of Iraq 19 years ago was less atrocious than what Russia is doing today in Ukraine. I don't remember anybody sanctioning the US at the time. Considering how much support for Ukraine is being expressed in the US today, I am trying to get some perspective. BTW I consider myself a mainstream to moderately left Democrat. Not given to extreme views. I don't hate Biden.

I'd ask Boo for more about Iraq - I wasn't supporting that war but I'm not really well informed. Were civilians routinely bombarded there?

I believe the difference is geography and politics. Ukraine has been invaded precisely because Ukrainians wanted to ally with the West - so the West as a whole is already a side in this conflict. Hard not to support someone who's bleeding but standing because they chose you.

For Europeans, especially the East EU and NATO nations, another explanation is also obvious - things are happening just at our backdoor. Those who have the unlucky experience of having been governed from Kremlin - we know very precisely what Ukraine is fighting against. Hard not to support them.

US is probably additionally concerned because EU and European NATO members are concerned. We're interconnected.

I can't speak for Boo but IIRC Saddam Hussein was an outspoken supporter of Palestine and so I believe are most people in Lebanon, and both Iraq and Lebanon were sworn enemies of Israel at the time, especially as Israel invaded Lebanon 40 years ago in a scenario comparable to what Russia is doing today with Ukraine.

I definitely condemn Israeli actions in Palestine. I didn't support Iraqi war.

For the two reasons I explained above, I find Ukraine more urgent and important than any other war in my lifetime so far.

The third reason is - Putin is giving reasons for concerns for his mental health. A crazy autocrat with a powerful army can do damage a sane one wouldn't.

Ukraine is a liberal, albeit flawed, democracy. If the people wanted to change direction, they could do so via democratic means. Russia’s aim is to effectively end Ukrainian democracy via violent means.

Iraq was an absolute dictatorship with state-sanctioned persecution of ethnic minorities, led by a genocidal war criminal who had already led invasions of two neighbouring countries. The only hope for a change of direction was violent.

There is therefore a huge difference between the two.

That doesn’t mean it was wrong to oppose the Iraq War necessarily. There are good arguments against it. It wasn’t in response to an immediate humanitarian catastrophe and it wasn’t supported by the UN Security Council, which undermined the rules-based order. It strengthened the anti-war movement in the West, which weakened the Western response to the Arab Spring, particularly in Syria. It gave Russia more cover to continue their military adventurism. Also, the US and UK did a pretty bad job at building a post-Saddam state; purging the military of former Baathists was a big mistake, but I don’t really consider that a good argument against the war.

The nearest thing maybe is the bay of the pigs invasion of Cuba that failed.

The US didn’t want a Soviet allied state on its border so tried to over throw the Castro gov

I was against the Iraq war just as I’m against the war in Ukraine

I'm not sure it was less atrocious and I've tried to remind people of that double standard while also consistently opposing this war as well.

Trust me….if the Arab states had the ability, they would have put sanctions on us.

I certainly don’t believe we should have screwed up Iraqi infrastructure like we did.

Saddam was somebody to get rid of—-but not at the expense of civilian casualties.

And anyway…we should be assertive in being an ally of the Ukrainian people….just like we should have been with the Iraqi people.

Perceived hypocrisy should not prevent us from helping the Ukrainians.

I think The_Walrus had a good summary: the leader of Iraq was an aggressive dictator terrorizing his own people and his neighbors. Iraq was not a democracy and had already tried to invade a neighbor. Everyone world-wide had wanted the leader gone for a long time. But that wasn't the reason for the invasion. The stated reason was Iraq's failure to comply with an arms agreement prohibiting it from developing nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons in the hands of sadistic dictator would, obviously, be a very bad thing. Still, I was NOT in favor of the war for a variety of reasons, and did not think we had a right to kick out the leader of a country no matter how hated. And, of course, it turned out that the intelligence we had suggesting they were in violation of the arms agreement was wrong, which is why the invasion looks pretty bad now with 20/20 hindsight. But understand this huge difference: Iraq was a war to topple a dictator, and the people of the country celebrated when he was gone. That is why Putin is working so hard to portray the government in the Ukraine as criminal, he wants to be able to play the same PR angle. Just, the world is smarter than that. The Ukranian people don't see Putin as a liberator, and they do not want him to "rescue" them from their government. Ultimately, it is as simple as that: what does the population of a country want? From that angle, even though the lens an outside nation can have will never be perfect, even though the US invasion of Iraq definitely had imperialist tones, and understanding we have long conceded the Iraq invasion was based on a lot of false data, the two invasions are completely opposite.

Saddam used biological weapons….these could, in a broadened sense, be “weapons of mass destruction.”

I don't think you can call the Ukranian government a true democracy at this point. It's pretty authoritarian. The president shut down three television networks for expressing pro Russian sentiments, and being critical of his administration.

The invasion of Iraq was a war crime.
It was based on a lie of "Weapons of mass destruction."
It destroyed Iraqi social cohesion and allowed the eventual atrocity of ISIS to dominate the area.

I remember how the Muuuurians sent bombers to decimate the retreating defenceless Iraq army.
I believe 100,000 were "murdered".

Nothing new to see.
Move along people.

You should know their starting point.
It was USSR.
They've gone a long way in the right direction.

Israel is usually *reactive* rather than proactive in its attacks.
Verifiable fact.
"Don't poke the bear" is my advice which will simply be ignored, of course.

True. But we're not getting the full truth from our media.