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SabbraCadabra
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21 Mar 2022, 11:59 pm

Pepe wrote:
People seem to be confused about the difference between "Gender Identity" and "Sexual attraction".
I doubt many 5 year olds would be masturbating while fantasising about a sexual partner.

You seem to be confused about the difference between "sexual orientation" and "sexual attraction".
Just because you had no romantic attraction towards one gender or the other until you had sexual intercourse with someone, doesn't mean the rest of the human race works that way. Most of us have a pretty good idea of which gender we're attracted to long before we lose our virginity.


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SabbraCadabra
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21 Mar 2022, 11:59 pm

Pepe wrote:
Do you have a link?
Do you have a link where he says this?

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/50 ... -governor/
Here's a link to the full video of him saying it, the article only contains a small snippet: https://twitter.com/DeFede/status/1501001977802764294

Pepe wrote:
Remember, it is children of ages 4 to 10 the bill is referring to.
Is it really appropriate to discuss or instruct children that young about sexual diversity?

Pages 4-5, lines 97-101:
Classroom instruction by school personnel or third
parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur
in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-
appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in
accordance with state standards.


I've underlined it for you.

Kids between 4 and 10 see the world around them, and they ask questions. Do you really believe that children should keep their LGBTQ+ parents a secret at school until they become whatever age "age appropriate" refers to?
What happens when their parent(s) pick them up from school? Do they have to hide in the bushes or something? Stay in the car with tinted windows?
Are their parents banned from PTA or PTC? (actually, this is Florida we're talking about, that might be a rhetorical question)

Pepe wrote:
I don't think children before puberty have a realistic idea of what their sexuality is.
How could they if they don't experience sexual feelings?

My first crush (on a girl) was in first grade. It had nothing to do with "sexual feelings".
You don't need "sexual feelings" to know which gender you prefer, otherwise 100% of asexual people would be bi.

Pepe wrote:
There is a difference between a question from a child coming up and the teacher introducing the concept to the child.

And if the question from a child came up, this bill would prevent the teacher from discussing it, and it would allow the parents to sue the school. Read the bill.

Pepe wrote:
Secondly, if no one is doing this, I.E. The problem doesn't exist, why the concern?

That's exactly the point. There is no concern over teachers being inappropriate, it's just a smokescreen for the actual issue at hand.

^ What Goldfish said.

Pepe wrote:
Well, I haven't seen where DeSantis says this so I can't really comment.

DeSantis didn't say it, it's in the bill.

Pages 4-5, lines 97-101:
Classroom instruction by school personnel or third
parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur
in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-
appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in
accordance with state standards.

Pepe wrote:
Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with parents being referred to.
It is their child after all.

So, hypothetically, you are an elementary school student, and you have a secret that you want to confide to a professional, but you don't want your abusive parent(s) to find out...

As I said, it could be well meaning, but it's hard to say how it will play out in Real World scenarios:
Lines 91-95:
This subparagraph does not prohibit a
school district from adopting procedures that permit school
personnel to withhold such information from a parent if a
reasonably prudent person would believe that disclosure would
result in abuse, abandonment, or neglect, as those terms are
defined in s. 39.01.

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk talking to school staff.

Pepe wrote:
Are you sure about this?
I was under the impression Disney stopped donations.

They didn't "stop" donations, they "paused" them. And it's a little too late now, the bill is already going through.
https://www.whereischapek.com/


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Pepe
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22 Mar 2022, 12:25 am

magz wrote:
Many people in Amuurica oppose vaccines and teaching their children about evolution.
The only thing I can do about it is feel sad for them.


So, no parental rights for you then.
Noted. 8)



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22 Mar 2022, 12:35 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Let me tell you….preschool kids play “house” and “doctor”—and that includes exploring each other’s bodies. And it’s perfectly normal.

There’s always boyfriends and girlfriends in Kindergarten.

You didn’t want mommy and daddy to find out, though! :P

There’s some sort of sexual feelings in children—but they’re not adult sexual feelings.

Kids start “adult” making out in middle school.

I should have pointed this out earlier.

And I say "A-mair-i-ca :) I don't know where this "Amurrica" thing comes from.....


Firstly, KK, are you *really* going to start hassling me about how I spell things?
You have been doing this for over 5 years, KK.
Please stop, KK.
It comes across as bullying, KK.

The links I supplied in this thread talks about young children being *curious* about their bodies and even curious about adult bodies.
Acting out is not the same as having a *sexual* attraction.
They don't have the pubescent hormones to create a sexual partner fantasy.

As I said previously, when you were five, did you masturbate and fantasise about another person?
I very much doubt that.

Google it for yourself. 8)



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22 Mar 2022, 12:40 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Most people would agree that discussions should be age-appropriate.
A 4 year old doesn't even know what sexual attraction is.
Introducing concepts that are confusing to young minds are confusing to young minds.

I think we two need to agree to disagree.
Or don't I have the option of having my own conceptual considerations? :scratch:


4 year olds sure know what relationships are, love, marriage etc. most of them have two parents that they’ve seen together their entire lives. It’s not unreasonable to teach them that other kids’ parents may be in relationships that look different than the one they know. Etc.


Well, I tried, magz. :shrug:

I have never suggested age appropriate things shouldn't be explained to young children.
I have stated that it would be preferable if the parents were involved.
I have also said, on many occasions, that it shouldn't be part of the curriculum for kindergarten children.

If a child asks a question, is it wrong to refer them to their parents?
The teacher could even write a note to the parents explaining what the child was interested in.
If the parent has given permission for a teacher to answer these sorts of questions, there is no problem.
If a parent hasn't given permission to the teacher, that teacher should respect the parent's rights.

The "Parental Rights Bill" is a bill for parent's rights.
Why do you want to take those rights away from parents?
I am listening. :nerdy:

goldfish21 wrote:
Age appropriate properly designed and delivered education should not be confusing. Children aren’t stupid and can easily understand these concepts.


Once again, it should be up to the parents.
If need be, separate classes could be created for those children whose parents have agreed.

Why do you have such a problem with parental rights?
Were you in an abusive family environment?

Give me your *reasons* for your position.
I am listening. :nerdy:


You are promoting parents' rights to perpetuate bigotry against LGBT people. That's what I'm against. I was not in an abusive family environment At All - in fact, I'm smack in the middle of reading up on child protection laws to rescue a child from a (mentally/emotionally) abusive environment as I'm very pro healthy children and very anti child abuse.


Me personally? :scratch:
That is your *misinformed* opinion.
What you are saying is libellous.
Stop it. 8)



Pepe
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22 Mar 2022, 12:46 am

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
People seem to be confused about the difference between "Gender Identity" and "Sexual attraction".
I doubt many 5 year olds would be masturbating while fantasising about a sexual partner.

You seem to be confused about the difference between "sexual orientation" and "sexual attraction".
Just because you had no romantic attraction towards one gender or the other until you had sexual intercourse with someone, doesn't mean the rest of the human race works that way. Most of us have a pretty good idea of which gender we're attracted to long before we lose our virginity.


<the irony>

What *you* don't understand is that "Gender Orientation" and "Sexual Orientation" is not the same thing.

Quote:
Sexual orientation is different from gender and gender identity.

Sexual orientation is about who you’re attracted to and who you feel drawn to romantically, emotionally, and sexually. It’s different than gender identity. Gender identity isn’t about who you’re attracted to, but about who you ARE — male, female, genderqueer, etc.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn ... rientation



goldfish21
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22 Mar 2022, 1:05 am

Pepe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Most people would agree that discussions should be age-appropriate.
A 4 year old doesn't even know what sexual attraction is.
Introducing concepts that are confusing to young minds are confusing to young minds.

I think we two need to agree to disagree.
Or don't I have the option of having my own conceptual considerations? :scratch:


4 year olds sure know what relationships are, love, marriage etc. most of them have two parents that they’ve seen together their entire lives. It’s not unreasonable to teach them that other kids’ parents may be in relationships that look different than the one they know. Etc.


Well, I tried, magz. :shrug:

I have never suggested age appropriate things shouldn't be explained to young children.
I have stated that it would be preferable if the parents were involved.
I have also said, on many occasions, that it shouldn't be part of the curriculum for kindergarten children.

If a child asks a question, is it wrong to refer them to their parents?
The teacher could even write a note to the parents explaining what the child was interested in.
If the parent has given permission for a teacher to answer these sorts of questions, there is no problem.
If a parent hasn't given permission to the teacher, that teacher should respect the parent's rights.

The "Parental Rights Bill" is a bill for parent's rights.
Why do you want to take those rights away from parents?
I am listening. :nerdy:

goldfish21 wrote:
Age appropriate properly designed and delivered education should not be confusing. Children aren’t stupid and can easily understand these concepts.


Once again, it should be up to the parents.
If need be, separate classes could be created for those children whose parents have agreed.

Why do you have such a problem with parental rights?
Were you in an abusive family environment?

Give me your *reasons* for your position.
I am listening. :nerdy:


You are promoting parents' rights to perpetuate bigotry against LGBT people. That's what I'm against. I was not in an abusive family environment At All - in fact, I'm smack in the middle of reading up on child protection laws to rescue a child from a (mentally/emotionally) abusive environment as I'm very pro healthy children and very anti child abuse.


Me personally? :scratch:
That is your *misinformed* opinion.
What you are saying is libellous factual.
Stop it. 8)


Fixed it for you. :)


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goldfish21
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22 Mar 2022, 1:06 am

Pepe wrote:
SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
People seem to be confused about the difference between "Gender Identity" and "Sexual attraction".
I doubt many 5 year olds would be masturbating while fantasising about a sexual partner.

You seem to be confused about the difference between "sexual orientation" and "sexual attraction".
Just because you had no romantic attraction towards one gender or the other until you had sexual intercourse with someone, doesn't mean the rest of the human race works that way. Most of us have a pretty good idea of which gender we're attracted to long before we lose our virginity.


<the irony>

What *you* don't understand is that "Gender Orientation" and "Sexual Orientation" is not the same thing.

Quote:
Sexual orientation is different from gender and gender identity.

Sexual orientation is about who you’re attracted to and who you feel drawn to romantically, emotionally, and sexually. It’s different than gender identity. Gender identity isn’t about who you’re attracted to, but about who you ARE — male, female, genderqueer, etc.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn ... rientation


What makes you think that? There's nothing written above that indicates that.


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22 Mar 2022, 1:10 am

I vote this thread just gets locked. Pepe's been corrected by at Least 3 or 4 regular members and 2 moderators, repeatedly, and continues to just bait people with his absurdities about the topic in question. As crappy as it is to lock a thread where there may be some teachable moments and learning going on for people who don't have a real grasp of LGBT rights being human rights, there isn't really all that much value to discussing this further, IMO, as it's just going to go round and round in circles with Pepe declaring himself right and the speaker of truth and whatever other nonsense while the rest of us roll our eyes, like this: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (6 times; 1 for each colour of the old school pride flag.)


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22 Mar 2022, 1:30 am

goldfish21 wrote:
I vote this thread just gets locked. Pepe's been corrected by at Least 3 or 4 regular members and 2 moderators, repeatedly, and continues to just bait people with his absurdities about the topic in question. As crappy as it is to lock a thread where there may be some teachable moments and learning going on for people who don't have a real grasp of LGBT rights being human rights, there isn't really all that much value to discussing this further, IMO, as it's just going to go round and round in circles with Pepe declaring himself right and the speaker of truth and whatever other nonsense while the rest of us roll our eyes, like this: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: (6 times; 1 for each colour of the old school pride flag.)


Yes.
Cancelling is your 8) schtick.



Pepe
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22 Mar 2022, 1:39 am

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Do you have a link?
Do you have a link where he says this?

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/50 ... -governor/
Here's a link to the full video of him saying it, the article only contains a small snippet: https://twitter.com/DeFede/status/1501001977802764294

Pepe wrote:
Remember, it is children of ages 4 to 10 the bill is referring to.
Is it really appropriate to discuss or instruct children that young about sexual diversity?

Pages 4-5, lines 97-101:
Classroom instruction by school personnel or third
parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur
in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-
appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in
accordance with state standards.


I've underlined it for you.

Kids between 4 and 10 see the world around them, and they ask questions. Do you really believe that children should keep their LGBTQ+ parents a secret at school until they become whatever age "age appropriate" refers to?
What happens when their parent(s) pick them up from school? Do they have to hide in the bushes or something? Stay in the car with tinted windows?
Are their parents banned from PTA or PTC? (actually, this is Florida we're talking about, that might be a rhetorical question)


You obviously missed where I said, several times from memory, that answering a question from a child is different to having an organised discussion embedded in the curriculum.
I also said, I would see it preferable if the *very young child* was referred to their parents.
I also said, if the parents have given permission for the teacher to handle this type of situation, I have no problem with that either.

My position is that I value the concept of *Parental Rights*.
If this opinion is offensive to you, I think you are the one who needs to reconsider your position.

I will respect your right to have an opinion.
Will you do the same for me?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I don't think children before puberty have a realistic idea of what their sexuality is.
How could they if they don't experience sexual feelings?

My first crush (on a girl) was in first grade. It had nothing to do with "sexual feelings".
You don't need "sexual feelings" to know which gender you prefer, otherwise 100% of asexual people would be bi.


Well, I have already explained to you the difference between "Gender Identity" and "Sexual Identity".

BTW, I had a crush on a teacher when I was in 6th grade.
It had nothing to do with sexuality.
That "crush" could have been for a male or female teacher, given the same situation.
A "crush" can involve sexual attraction or it can simply be platonic.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
There is a difference between a question from a child coming up and the teacher introducing the concept to the child.

And if the question from a child came up, this bill would prevent the teacher from discussing it, and it would allow the parents to sue the school. Read the bill.


You don't understand that I am in support of "Parental Rights", not specifically the bill that has been passed.
I believe in the *Principle* of parents having a say in the direction of their children's education.

Are you saying the bill expressly prohibits teacher involvement even if the parent has given permission?
I am not sure either you nor I know, as a certainty, the answer to that question.


SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Secondly, if no one is doing this, I.E. The problem doesn't exist, why the concern?

That's exactly the point. There is no concern over teachers being inappropriate, it's just a smokescreen for the actual issue at hand.

^ What Goldfish said.


I have pointed out many times that there are maverick activist teachers out there that need to be muzzled.
I even made a thread about it.
Would you like me to find it for you?

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Well, I haven't seen where DeSantis says this so I can't really comment.

DeSantis didn't say it, it's in the bill.

Pages 4-5, lines 97-101:
Classroom instruction by school personnel or third
parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur
in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-
appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in
accordance with state standards.


Firstly, you edited out the apart that I was referring to.
You have taken my comment out of context.
You need to stop doing that.

I wasn't inquiring whether it was in the bill.
I was under the impression (apparently incorrectly) that the person was suggesting it was De Santis who said it.
I research and discovered Desantis wasn't responsible for the bill creation.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Personally speaking, I don't have a problem with parents being referred to.
It is their child after all.

So, hypothetically, you are an elementary school student, and you have a secret that you want to confide to a professional, but you don't want your abusive parent(s) to find out...


Once again, the context of my original comment may have been ignored.
I am referring to *very young children*, specifically kindergarten children.
Kindergarten children wouldn't even think a *simple question* will have *any* repercussions.

And what is the question a kindergarten student might ask which would be a problem for them with their parents?
Please give me an example.

SabbraCadabra wrote:
As I said, it could be well meaning, but it's hard to say how it will play out in Real World scenarios:
Lines 91-95:
This subparagraph does not prohibit a
school district from adopting procedures that permit school
personnel to withhold such information from a parent if a
reasonably prudent person would believe that disclosure would
result in abuse, abandonment, or neglect, as those terms are
defined in s. 39.01.

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk talking to school staff.
[/quote][/quote]

This has no relevance that I can see in regard to *kindergarten* children.
Please give an example where a 5 year old would be abused for asking a 5 year old's question.



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22 Mar 2022, 1:41 am

goldfish21 wrote:
I vote this thread just gets locked.


I asked if we could agree to disagree and move on.
Remember, I later said: "Well, I tried, magz. :shrug: "
It was ***you*** that wanted to continue the discussion. ;)



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22 Mar 2022, 1:47 am

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You seriously can't think of a question a 5yo might have that they'd ask a teacher but not an abusive parent? :?

Clearly you have Zero ability to imagine what it might be like to be an LGBT 5yo living in a family home with homophobes/transphobes for parents.

And just for good measure I'll balance out the bottom of this post with another pride flag for you:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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22 Mar 2022, 1:59 am

goldfish21 wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You seriously can't think of a question a 5yo might have that they'd ask a teacher but not an abusive parent? :?

Clearly you have Zero ability to imagine what it might be like to be an LGBT 5yo living in a family home with homophobes/transphobes for parents.

And just for good measure I'll balance out the bottom of this post with another pride flag for you:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


You have difficulty with the concept of: "Stop talking!"
I don't.
After this post, I will not be responding to you again in this thread. 8)



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22 Mar 2022, 2:03 am

If we agree not to have difficulty with stopping talking, here we are.
Thread locked.


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