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orbweaver
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13 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm

Isn't anyone else kind of uncomfortable with clinicians/medicolegal people/authority figures, associating failure to adhere to hegemonic gender and sex norms, with developmental disability and or mental illness?

This makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable and feels... slippery slope-ish to me.


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SkinnedWolf
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15 Jun 2022, 9:44 am

^It is not a bad thing to associate atypical manifestations/self feelings with atypical physiological basis - the latter also does not need to be "handled" without the individual's request.

And "associating failure to here to hegemonic gender and sex normals" and Trans are not exactly the same thing.


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orbweaver
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15 Jun 2022, 11:57 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
^It is not a bad thing to associate atypical manifestations/self feelings with atypical physiological basis - the latter also does not need to be "handled" without the individual's request.

And "associating failure to here to hegemonic gender and sex normals" and Trans are not exactly the same thing.


They're absolutely not the same thing, but there's a long history of authoritarians treating them that way - and in the past, of LGBTQ people being put into asylums, etc.


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15 Jun 2022, 12:32 pm

orbweaver wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
^It is not a bad thing to associate atypical manifestations/self feelings with atypical physiological basis - the latter also does not need to be "handled" without the individual's request.

And "associating failure to here to hegemonic gender and sex normals" and Trans are not exactly the same thing.


They're absolutely not the same thing, but there's a long history of authoritarians treating them that way - and in the past, of LGBTQ people being put into asylums, etc.

The error lies in the "put into asylums" and other methods of authoritarians, rather than research whether there is associating.
Otherwise we will get another slide in the stigma of atypical nerve/psychology/other physiological basis. Even if it exists, that is not a reason to enforce something on them.


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21 Jun 2022, 11:38 pm

Well the thing I don't understand about the trans movement, if that's an okay term to call it, is that I don't understand this exception to the rule of how it's okay for society to tell people they are incorrect in their believes in several things, but not gender.

For example, if a man who was say black, thought he was white kept telling everyone he was white, people are just going to tell him that he is incorrect and he is not white. If a woman who is 60 years old, told everyone she was 10 and wanted to go back to grade school and start over with other children, because she is also 10, other people would tell her she is incorrect and this is not true of her to think like this.

But if a person believes themselves to be a different gender, then all of a sudden it is not okay to tell them they are wrong, compared to that person believing other things about themselves that would seem incorrect as in a person believing they are the wrong race or age, than they actually truly are.

Why is gender the exception to the rule that you cannot attempt to correct a person, compared to all these other things you can attempt to correct a person on, and it's considered socially acceptable in comparison to do so?



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22 Jun 2022, 2:56 am

^Because (at least part of it can be confirmed) gender identity has a physiological basis.

If the research finally shows that racial identity also has a physiological basis.
If a half breed, for example, is almost white in appearance, but the physiological part that affects identity tends to be black, it is reasonable to respect their self identification and call them black (or other self-identity) if don't do it really makes them feel painful.
But it will take time to develop.


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22 Jun 2022, 6:52 am

Race is a social construct. Membership in a racial group is ultimately dependent on how society perceives an individual. OTOH there is no controversy as to the meaning of gender, the problem is when an individual's self-identification disagrees with the generally understood meaning (of course I am disregarding intersex here).


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23 Jun 2022, 4:07 am

fredpat wrote:
This post has 18 pages talking about different things, there was no definition of the terms. Then, a lot of confusion is just made by the confusion used terminology: Trans, autistic, gender, biological sex, LGBT, gender dysphoria, identity, etc.

Below the definition and the elaboration of an argument:

Transgender
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

Autism, or autism spectrum disorder (ASD), refers to a broad range of conditions characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviors, speech and nonverbal communication.

Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. This sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so intense it can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily life.

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender.

Biological sex, this large gamete/small gamete distinction between males and females is the only one that holds up well across all mammals species. The male gamete in animal is called 'sperm' (small gamete) and the female gamete in animals is called 'ovum' or 'egg' (large gamete)

Occam's Razor states: “the simplest solution is almost always the best.” It's a problem-solving principle arguing that simplicity is better than complexity.

Now, let's present the argument.

The sense of personal identity cannot be proven by medicine or science, there is no test to proof that. I can say today I'm feel like a woman and tomorrow I'm a man and no doctor or psychologist can know for sure.

Now, How about the autistic traits of lack of social understanding, force us to be isolated during or before puberty. Some post or experiences given from autistic people:
1) I cannot understand kids of my gender, they do not understand me, I not part of their group. They reject me.
Our black and white logic can lead us to says: If I'm not like my own gender, I should be the opposite gender.
This logic is flaw since the source of rejection is no gender, but lack of social skills to be able to get into group and capacity to form reciprocal friendships (in-person, not online).
2) If I like things and colors that are used to the opposite gender instead of my own gender. I'm a boy and I like pink. I'm a girl and I like cars. I'm boy but I'm am not so rude. I'm a girly, but I'm not so girly.
This is also a total contradiction and believe that gender stereotype is static among people. This is false gender stereotype are flexible and changes in culture and history. Statistically only 67% of the people conform these stereotype, then the other 33% should be trans? All nerdy boys and girls should be trans?
3) Over-sensory and Under-sensory make autistic people to feel uncomfortable in your own body.
This is a classic autistic trait, that can make us believe that you are in the wrong body. I do not like to be hug like the other girls. I'm scare of loud sounds. I do not like to dress like the other girls. I'm not like feeling of my face hair as a boy. All these sensory disorders go to extreme during puberty and they can cause extreme stress if the autistic kid is not prepare for it.
4) Mental fixation: Obsessive toughs can also contribute to gender dysphoria, if transgender ideology is adopted and there is not caution about the social media influences. The worst is if this is encourage or suggested by peers or even teachers in school.

These autistic traits plus other factors might result in anxiety, isolation, depression and even suicidal feelings.
Which is the exactly the same complaint given by transgender, many of them do not even realize that they are autistic or have autistic traits.

Going back to Occam's Razor:

What is most likely?
An autistic person has the feeling of identity of a gender that he or she never was. Identity that nor science or medicine can proof or test. Hope that trans to the opposite gender it will fix existing autism traits or mental health issues.

OR

I'm not trans, I'm just autistic.


I found this really helpful but the definition of 'gender' was missed out.

As far as I can tell 'gender' simply denotes to how much a person fits regressive sexist stereotypes generally associated in this place, at this time with this sex.

Or am I missing something?



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23 Jun 2022, 8:37 pm

MaxE wrote:
Race is a social construct. Membership in a racial group is ultimately dependent on how society perceives an individual. OTOH there is no controversy as to the meaning of gender, the problem is when an individual's self-identification disagrees with the generally understood meaning (of course I am disregarding intersex here).


Well let's say for example a person looks like a man but feels she is a woman. Why is this considered to be such a big deal in society? Is it a big deal in dating, because they cannot find enough potential suiters that agree with them on that, or does it go beyond that?



fredpat
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29 Jun 2022, 12:42 am

Yes, it can contribute. Let's put it down: autistic kids are rejected and even bullied in school, so the only male identification and validation can be in their own family and in case of a boy, the father. In case of a girl the mother.
If you live only with you mom and no father, no brothers, no male-friends. As autistic rejected in school by the group of boys. You will have difficulties in identification and validation of you own gender by a member of the same sex-group.
Even though, there are kids with both parent present, father is always at home, but not present at the same time, busy in other things or not interested in playing with the autistic kid, this might be a contributing factor to the lack of gender identification and validation in elementary and middle school years.
The father of an autistic kid should make up for this lack of social group in the autistic kid. He should play, physically as long as he can, encourage, validate the kid as member of the gender group. The most important educate and prevent about the trans ideas. Give the number 1% versus 99%, give the irrationality of feeling or not feeling like a or feeling or not feeling like a girl. Enforce say your are 100% boy or you are 100% girl. In neurotypical this is even enforced in social groups, sports competitions, where autistic kids lack of participation.
How do you know you are or you are not one? Become critical, prevent the kid, since social rejection, depression, anxiety are traits in autism, they will become victims of the trans ideology.





ironpony wrote:
One thing I noticed about trans people, is that they have single parents, or brought up with a single parent, or a few that I have known.

So I am wondering, could that be a contributing factor possibly, as to what can cause a person to be trans, or no?



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29 Jun 2022, 1:13 am

Go on, try to let your nonsense cover me.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

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