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ironpony
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07 May 2022, 10:03 am

Oh I see. Well when it comes to playing gender roles as being a possible cause of gender dysphoria, is that usually the cause?



kraftiekortie
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07 May 2022, 10:23 am

It’s deeper than that….

I don’t know too many people with gender dysphoria……but the ones who do have it are not merely playing a “role.” Gender Reassignment Surgery is not for the faint hearted.



temp1234
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07 May 2022, 12:00 pm

^Yes. Gender dysphoria and not liking the gender roles are two different things. I actually like being biologically male and would never want to change that. Yet, I resent the male gender roles that society imposes on men. Men are usually not even allowed to openly talk about that unlike women.



ironpony
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09 May 2022, 9:30 am

But what I don't understand is, why would a person experience dysphoria over their gender if it doesn't have anything to do with gender roles? It must have something to do with gender roles, otherwise where would the motivation for the dysphoria come from then?



kraftiekortie
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09 May 2022, 9:34 am

It could be, simply, that a biological boy thinks he’s a girl, and vice versa.

Or thinks it is intersex or non-binary.

It could be caused by agents both societal or biological.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 09 May 2022, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

SkinnedWolf
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09 May 2022, 9:41 am

ironpony wrote:
But what I don't understand is, why would a person experience dysphoria over their gender if it doesn't have anything to do with gender roles? It must have something to do with gender roles, otherwise where would the motivation for the dysphoria come from then?

I dislike that I have a uterus but no sideburn nor pomum adami.
And my "dislikes" have no effect on the material world.
easy


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ironpony
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09 May 2022, 9:43 am

Oh I see. But where do the motivations for that come from then?



SkinnedWolf
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09 May 2022, 9:46 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh I see. But where do the motivations for that come from then?

Where it came from is as clear as where our autism comes from.


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ironpony
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09 May 2022, 9:51 am

But isn't this a problem though, because if no one actually bothers to explore where it comes from then how can we treat the dysphoria better? Everyone just acts like it's arbitruary where it comes from and who cares to explore it. But by not bothering to want to explore the route, the knowledge is limited on the subject matter. No one cares about reason, just what do to as a result of the unknown reason.



SkinnedWolf
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09 May 2022, 9:55 am

^
1. There are always scholars exploring where it comes. But like any other atypical experience, first identify individuals with it and address their difficulties, collecting data and exploring why in the process.
And our thread for this thread is concerned with "where did it come from".
2. If you are anxious on account of being abused in your life, the more pressing issue is addressing the abuse than addressing your anxiety.


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luckystrike.es
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27 May 2022, 7:10 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
^
1. There are always scholars exploring where it comes. But like any other atypical experience, first identify individuals with it and address their difficulties, collecting data and exploring why in the process.
And our thread for this thread is concerned with "where did it come from".
2. If you are anxious on account of being abused in your life, the more pressing issue is addressing the abuse than addressing your anxiety.

:thumright:


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ironpony
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29 May 2022, 8:11 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
^
1. There are always scholars exploring where it comes. But like any other atypical experience, first identify individuals with it and address their difficulties, collecting data and exploring why in the process.
And our thread for this thread is concerned with "where did it come from".
2. If you are anxious on account of being abused in your life, the more pressing issue is addressing the abuse than addressing your anxiety.


Oh okay, but what are scholars doing to address the abuse for being trans specifically then?



luckystrike.es
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02 Jun 2022, 4:08 am

ironpony wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
^
1. There are always scholars exploring where it comes. But like any other atypical experience, first identify individuals with it and address their difficulties, collecting data and exploring why in the process.
And our thread for this thread is concerned with "where did it come from".
2. If you are anxious on account of being abused in your life, the more pressing issue is addressing the abuse than addressing your anxiety.


Oh okay, but what are scholars doing to address the abuse for being trans specifically then?


Quite a lot, including elucidating the appropriate focus of discourse.


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ironpony
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03 Jun 2022, 12:10 am

Oh I see. Well it seems that scholars haven't come up with anything as to what is causing this gender dysphoria in people, so if they cannot figure it out, then helping people seems really limited if they cannot find out the route of where it's all coming from it seems.



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04 Jun 2022, 11:25 am

luckystrike.es wrote:
Fnord wrote:
luckystrike.es wrote:
Gender is a social construct -- if you think that's a political statement then you really don't know enough about this issue to have a meaningful conversation. . .
While "gender" may or may not be a social construct, "sex" is definitely not.  Deal with it.


I am not certain what you would like me to deal with.

Gender as a social construct is not an unanswered question. The answer lies in the fact that different cultures construct gender differently. Nonetheless, you are correct about sex. Sex is a biological classification concerned primarily with reproductive organs and secondary characteristics. It is not a social construct like gender. For your personal edification I am providing a list of the 6 most common biological sexes naturally occurring in humans:

X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

As your viewpoint appears to rest on a foundation of misconceptions and ignorance of the subject matter, I doubt these facts will move you. And that is something I am entirely prepared to deal with.

I am a cisgender autistic male who prefers verifiable facts over opinionated bigotry masquerading as something else, but I have no horse in this race.

Reading through the posts in this thread is disheartening. Did you know that ABA was created to "fix" non-gender conforming people? Can you not see the perverse irony of a group of people who have been marginalized by experts who purport to know the inner life of others better than they themselves.... what's the use.



Just to clarify this sex numbers, published in the internet:

XX – 50.34 % of the population is female. (Includes LGBT and/or autistic)
XY – 49.32 % of the population is male. (Includes LGBT and/or autistic)
=================================
Total XX and XY: 99.66% of the population (Includes LGBT and/or autistic)

Rare genetic conditions:
X – Turner's 0.04% are females
XXY - Klinefelter 0.2% are males
XYY - XYY syndrome - 0.1% are males
================================
Total: 0.34% is very low and it does not cover the autistic or LGBT population which does not suffer of these rare genetic conditions.

LGBT+ people in population 5.6%
Autistic People 2.21%

Now you see XX and XY: 99.66% is binary male or female, the genetic anomalies total 0.34%, does not make a spectrum of sexes. Even these conditions have a fix male, or female presentation. LGBT and autistic people does not suffer of the 0.34% genetic anomalies.

Analogously, there is another genetic condition called Ectrodactyly, where people born with 2 or 3 fingers, it is very rare also. This does not make an spectrum of people with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 fingers as the spectrum of the sex spectrum ideology falls to be irrational.



fredpat
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04 Jun 2022, 1:05 pm

This post has 18 pages talking about different things, there was no definition of the terms. Then, a lot of confusion is just made by the confusion used terminology: Trans, autistic, gender, biological sex, LGBT, gender dysphoria, identity, etc.

Below the definition and the elaboration of an argument:

Transgender
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

Autism, or autism spectrum disorder (ASD), refers to a broad range of conditions characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviors, speech and nonverbal communication.

Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. This sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so intense it can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily life.

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender.

Biological sex, this large gamete/small gamete distinction between males and females is the only one that holds up well across all mammals species. The male gamete in animal is called 'sperm' (small gamete) and the female gamete in animals is called 'ovum' or 'egg' (large gamete)

Occam's Razor states: “the simplest solution is almost always the best.” It's a problem-solving principle arguing that simplicity is better than complexity.

Now, let's present the argument.

The sense of personal identity cannot be proven by medicine or science, there is no test to proof that. I can say today I'm feel like a woman and tomorrow I'm a man and no doctor or psychologist can know for sure.

Now, How about the autistic traits of lack of social understanding, force us to be isolated during or before puberty. Some post or experiences given from autistic people:
1) I cannot understand kids of my gender, they do not understand me, I not part of their group. They reject me.
Our black and white logic can lead us to says: If I'm not like my own gender, I should be the opposite gender.
This logic is flaw since the source of rejection is no gender, but lack of social skills to be able to get into group and capacity to form reciprocal friendships (in-person, not online).
2) If I like things and colors that are used to the opposite gender instead of my own gender. I'm a boy and I like pink. I'm a girl and I like cars. I'm boy but I'm am not so rude. I'm a girly, but I'm not so girly.
This is also a total contradiction and believe that gender stereotype is static among people. This is false gender stereotype are flexible and changes in culture and history. Statistically only 67% of the people conform these stereotype, then the other 33% should be trans? All nerdy boys and girls should be trans?
3) Over-sensory and Under-sensory make autistic people to feel uncomfortable in your own body.
This is a classic autistic trait, that can make us believe that you are in the wrong body. I do not like to be hug like the other girls. I'm scare of loud sounds. I do not like to dress like the other girls. I'm not like feeling of my face hair as a boy. All these sensory disorders go to extreme during puberty and they can cause extreme stress if the autistic kid is not prepare for it.
4) Mental fixation: Obsessive toughs can also contribute to gender dysphoria, if transgender ideology is adopted and there is not caution about the social media influences. The worst is if this is encourage or suggested by peers or even teachers in school.

These autistic traits plus other factors might result in anxiety, isolation, depression and even suicidal feelings.
Which is the exactly the same complaint given by transgender, many of them do not even realize that they are autistic or have autistic traits.

Going back to Occam's Razor:

What is most likely?
An autistic person has the feeling of identity of a gender that he or she never was. Identity that nor science or medicine can proof or test. Hope that trans to the opposite gender it will fix existing autism traits or mental health issues.

OR

I'm not trans, I'm just autistic.