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Voice from Shanghai Lockdown

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SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 2:47 am

I checked all of the BBC's coverage of Shanghai's post-blockade.
In reverse chronological order:
Shanghai: Green fences baffle locked down residents
Shanghai: Censors try to block video about lockdown conditions
Shanghai lockdown: Whole communities relocated in anti-Covid drive
Covid China: Elderly deaths contradict Shanghai figures
China Covid: Clashes in Shanghai over lockdown evictions
Shanghai lockdown: How angry netizens test China's 'Great Firewall'
Shanghai: Residents 'running out of food' in Covid lockdown
China: Shanghai hospital struggles with Covid infections
The specific evidence of the above report is completely true. Most have been well discussed on the Chinese Internet.
The statement involved is the mainstream opinion on the Chinese Internet.
It can be considered that the above is confirmed news.

Show Spoiler
However, the information in BBC's coverage show that the BBC seems to have subtle things in common with the video makers on the subject of this thread.

(But explaining the reason for the above phenomenon involves some under-discussed evidence and inferences, so I still need to prepare.)


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cyberdad
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25 Apr 2022, 3:03 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
China's political structure and cultural background make them prone to masking problems at the outset.
Or, they're dealing with a problem, but don't want us to know they're dealing with it.


As a foreigner looking into China there is little I can realistically do to oppose what the CCP does to its own citizens in Shanghai. Human rights is clearly subject to moral/cultural relativism of those who hold power.

However the CCP has subjected millions overseas to a life of pain and suffering around the world because they chose not share the COVID outbreak in 2019. To me this is a global crime which the CCP must pay/atone for.



SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 3:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
However the CCP has subjected millions overseas to a life of pain and suffering around the world because they chose not share the COVID outbreak in 2019. To me this is a global crime which the CCP must pay/atone for.

it is.
The CCP has an inescapable responsibility for the spread of Covid.

But there are many different views on the origins of Covid on the Chinese internet.
And the "global" epidemic has to do with the careless evacuation of citizens form Wuhan by other countries at the time.
There are Japanese officials who committed suicide because of this dereliction of duty to cause the COVID epidemic in Japan.

If the CCP had adopted more sensible measures at that time, it definitely can decrease the global losses.
However, it may not completely solve the problem.


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SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 3:41 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This reminds me of the early stages of the Wuhan outbreak in 2020. Conflicting images were being broadcast that did not make sense to the foreign media. The authorities were attempting to clamp down on circulation of images/footage of residents being forcibly isolated or removed when testing positive. There were images of dead people on the street, people throwing pets from buildings, crematoriums full of cremated ashes of what appeared to be thousands of dead. There were US satellite images of Wuhan hospital being inundated with patients as early as Sept 2019 which means the CCP were blocking all news of the outbreak for 5 months before it leaked out to the outside world.

This sounds about right.

I disagree with this statement.
Covid is known to be extremely contagious.
If Wuhan had overcrowded hospitals because of "Covid" in Sept 2019, it would definitely leak to other cities.
And my home is near Wuhan. There is a lot of movement of people between our cities. We had not received any relevant news.

Censorship can keep us from learning about an event systematically, but it doesn't keep us unaware of the existence of something so influential.
Chinese is a flexible language and banning a word does not matter. We can create new words to express it.
And one-on-one communication is virtually uncensored.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
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Pepe
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25 Apr 2022, 3:50 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
This reminds me of the early stages of the Wuhan outbreak in 2020. Conflicting images were being broadcast that did not make sense to the foreign media. The authorities were attempting to clamp down on circulation of images/footage of residents being forcibly isolated or removed when testing positive. There were images of dead people on the street, people throwing pets from buildings, crematoriums full of cremated ashes of what appeared to be thousands of dead. There were US satellite images of Wuhan hospital being inundated with patients as early as Sept 2019 which means the CCP were blocking all news of the outbreak for 5 months before it leaked out to the outside world.

This sounds about right.

I disagree with this statement.
Covid is known to be extremely contagious.
If Wuhan had overcrowded hospitals because of "Covid" at that time, it would definitely leak to other cities.
And my home is near Wuhan. There is a lot of movement of people between our cities. We had not received any relevant news.

Censorship can keep us from learning about an event systematically, but it doesn't keep us unaware of the existence of something so influential.
Chinese is a flexible language and banning a word does not matter. We can create new words to express it.
And one-on-one communication is virtually uncensored.


You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.



SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 3:52 am

Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.


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With the help of translation software.

Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Show Spoiler
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Pepe
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25 Apr 2022, 3:55 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.


And there is evidence that the virus was manmade, also.

"Don't shoot the messenger." ;)



SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 3:55 am

Pepe wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.


And there is evidence that the virus was manmade, also.

"Don't shoot the messenger." ;)

I'm sure there's also some research from multiple countries showing that it's not man-made.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
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Pepe
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25 Apr 2022, 3:56 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.


And there is evidence that the virus was manmade, also.

"Don't shoot the messenger." ;)

I'm sure there's also some research from multiple countries showing that it's not man-made.


I surrender! 8O :mrgreen:



magz
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25 Apr 2022, 3:58 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.

Possible - I can imagine ambitious science done in these labs with insufficient safety. Some experiment going out of control and the government denying and trying to silence it.
While it's just a theory, all the elements:
1. Ambicious science;
2. Insufficient safety measures;
3. Government silencing things
are relatively common and they're all well-documented to exist in China. So, this conspiracy would not require any evil secret organization ruling all the world nor impossible sci-fi technology to happen.


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SkinnedWolf
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25 Apr 2022, 4:12 am

magz wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
Pepe wrote:
You must know that there is a bio-lab that studies coronavirus, in Wuhan.
Reason would suggest it was the possible origin of the virus.

possible, yes.
An attractive theory.

Possible - I can imagine ambitious science done in these labs with insufficient safety. Some experiment going out of control and the government denying and trying to silence it.
While it's just a theory, all the elements:
1. Ambicious science;
2. Insufficient safety measures;
3. Government silencing things
are relatively common and they're all well-documented to exist in China. So, this conspiracy would not require any evil secret organization ruling all the world nor impossible sci-fi technology to happen.

Investigations into the origin of COVID-19
Discussing various theories of the origin of COVID-19, including the "Wuhan lab" theory, is not taboo in China.
It's a theory, but it's also challenged.

Here are some of the more conclusive crimes about a government causing global damage by concealing it.
Discharge of radioactive water of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant
Before they draw similar attention, I'd rather discuss what's going on in Shanghai.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Show Spoiler
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


magz
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25 Apr 2022, 4:29 am

How I understand Shanghai is:
Loose control and international contacts up to recently have resulted in:
a) economical growth
b) foreign influence
c) corruption
all at the same time.
It's possible central government has been turning the blind eye on b) and c) because of a).
Now it has changed and, unfortunately, the three may be too interwined with each other to easily solve the problem of corruption without huge losses to the economy and, thus, to people's well-being.


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cyberdad
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25 Apr 2022, 4:37 am

magz wrote:
How I understand Shanghai is:
Loose control and international contacts up to recently have resulted in:
a) economical growth
b) foreign influence
c) corruption
all at the same time.
It's possible central government has been turning the blind eye on b) and c) because of a).
Now it has changed and, unfortunately, the three may be too interwined with each other to easily solve the problem of corruption without huge losses to the economy and, thus, to people's well-being.


Their actions aren't entirely unforseen though. Prior to COVID the CCP clamped down on Hong Kong in order to stamp out anti-CCP elements but prior to this they also turned a blind eye to HK due to the economic window it provided to foreign markets



cyberdad
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25 Apr 2022, 4:42 am

SkinnedWolf wrote:
If the CCP had adopted more sensible measures at that time, it definitely can decrease the global losses.
However, it may not completely solve the problem.


That is my point though. The CCP are knowingly subscribing to outlandish theories to avoid responsibility for the outbreak.

On the question of the origin of the virus. Even SARS, MERS. AIDS and Ebola are yet to be agreed upon as to their origins But there is tantalising evidence of manufacturing, But is China the only party to this virus? that is the question.



magz
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25 Apr 2022, 4:51 am

cyberdad wrote:
But is China the only party to this virus? that is the question.
In case of a genuine research getting out of control scenario, typical research teams are huge international co-operations and that's their natural shape.
But in this scenario, there would be a particular chain of people responsible for neglecting safety requirements.


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25 Apr 2022, 6:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
magz wrote:
How I understand Shanghai is:
Loose control and international contacts up to recently have resulted in:
a) economical growth
b) foreign influence
c) corruption
all at the same time.
It's possible central government has been turning the blind eye on b) and c) because of a).
Now it has changed and, unfortunately, the three may be too interwined with each other to easily solve the problem of corruption without huge losses to the economy and, thus, to people's well-being.


Their actions aren't entirely unforseen though. Prior to COVID the CCP clamped down on Hong Kong in order to stamp out anti-CCP elements but prior to this they also turned a blind eye to HK due to the economic window it provided to foreign markets


Didn't things change when Xi came into power?