Quoted: "Do you even understand why people get together?"

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Aspie1
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07 May 2022, 5:58 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
All academic events? Or just proms and other dance events?

I recall plenty of college student club events where the majority of people did not show up with dates.

Also, at my high school (Bronx High School of Science), I simply did not attend the prom, and neither did the vast majority of students if I recall correctly. There wasn't the kind of social pressure to attend the prom, in the first place, that there apparently is in many high schools. This fact was a big relief for me. I was under the impression, back then, that proms at other high schools were a huge headache for all involved, and I just didn't see the point of it all.

I probably should have said "most". :) Even so, if someone brought a date to ANY event at my high school, their social rank would instantly improve, albeit on a sliding scale of the date's looks.

Then again, maybe it's a city/suburb dichotomy. I went to a snooty suburban high school, where having a car and wearing fashionable brands were the be-all and end-all. Cities, despite having turned into woke wastelands in the last 3 years, tend to be nonchalant about things like taking public transit, being single, or wearing clothes from Walmart.



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07 May 2022, 6:51 pm

Fnord wrote:
I think this is another “Red Pill / Involuntarily Celibate / I-Can’t-Get-A-Girlfriend” thread.


Dawd, I resist agreeing with you wherever I can with every fibre of my body, but I have to agree here. 8)



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07 May 2022, 6:54 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I had no car until I was 51. No license until age 37.

I had sex thousands of times with about 30 women before I got my license—none of whom were escorts.

Not saying this to brag….only saying this to seek to disprove all this Red Pill crap.

I’m a thoroughly beta man.


This I find hard to believe.
Are you employing "Hyperbole"?



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07 May 2022, 7:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

I think your friend thought you looked at dating the girl as just a milestone without considering both her as a person as well as the whole aspect of seeing her as a means to an end (getting to attend social gatherings with a date) rather than as a person to invest your time, attention and concern into; essentially leading her on emotionally. Honestly, it almost sounds like you're describing your end of the relationship like you were a sex trade worker with a client: I gave her the full boyfriend experience, all the romantic basics were included.


Who wouldn't see it this way? :scratch:

funeralxempire wrote:
If one's explanation for their relationship is I had to settle for someone I don't like just to have someone at all they owe it to their partner to let them go find someone who will actually be grateful for them and stop pretending they're that person.


I am sure he doesn't realise how disrespectful this attitude is.
I suggest you take his autism into consideration.


funeralxempire wrote:
You're right that a lot of people get into relationships just to conform to social norms but that's a significant factor in why many younger people's romantic relationships are doomed to failure. They haven't figured out how to find more appropriate partners and have encountered someone similar in that regard. If they don't really know what they want except just to have a partner they might end up with a partner but not much else beyond someone who qualifies as that. This might contribute to why older cohorts have higher divorce rates than younger ones right now, the younger ones often married later and with less pressure to do it for the wrong reasons.


Not all people are created equally.
Perhaps a degree of moral relativism may be in order here? But not to the degree expressed by the OP.


funeralxempire wrote:
Long term relationships formed like that are prone to cheating if someone who's exciting and more emotionally fulfilling comes along, often not because that person has much to offer but simply because they satisfy that need to actually wanted instead of merely tolerated. In that scenario it's not that hard for someone to be more emotionally fulfilling than the partner and that plays a role in why a lot of people who get cheated on seem to get cheated on with pretty dysfunctional people. They don't need to be suitable as partners, they just provide something that's needed for a long time.


Agreed. 8)



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07 May 2022, 7:18 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
Well, as I learned from the Red Pill, even the most unattractive women have nearly limitless options. Unattractive men, especially carless unattractive men, do not. If I only knew in 2002 what I know in 2022.

That is simply not true, except maybe on the more hookup-oriented dating apps, other hookup-oriented venues, and perhaps other, more esoteric predominantly-male subcultures. But most women are just not interested in hookups, which is one of the reasons why these venues are predominantly male in the first place. So, lots of women have difficulty finding men who are genuinely interested in a potential longterm relationship with them.


Some women don't want "A Long Term Relationship", especially when they are younger.
Some simply want to "Sow Their Wild Oats", also.
Some may even become involved in a polyamorous subculture for the sexual experience. 8)



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07 May 2022, 8:27 pm

Personally, mutual sex drive and interest in at least one part of the personality, trustworthy motivation to get to know me, while finding no obvious reason why not to be together.

But that doesn't seem to be the motivation for most people.
Humans often need a steady goal to work towards, and a sense of being "needed."
And, in pre-industrial societies, living with another person was a more economical option than being alone.

I'm not surprised to find that in my environment some of the hardest and most painful jobs are "people with families" doing.
A partner, whether the relationship is real or fake or auto-suggested, provides "goal" and "needed" to help them endure the meaningless tortures of life.

For those who are more fortunate in life, this doesn't have to be the case, but there are still people who make a dedicated effort to "have a partner". And it happens at times that are sometimes even anti-social norms in my culture.
Maybe they were overwhelmed by the breeding instinct. Solving this problem allows them to focus on more important things.
Maybe they want the illusion of being needed to make their barren spirits look thriving.


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 07 May 2022, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
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07 May 2022, 9:46 pm

Pepe wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
But most women are just not interested in hookups, which is one of the reasons why these venues are predominantly male in the first place. So, lots of women have difficulty finding men who are genuinely interested in a potential longterm relationship with them.


Some women don't want "A Long Term Relationship", especially when they are younger.
Some simply want to "Sow Their Wild Oats", also.
Some may even become involved in a polyamorous subculture for the sexual experience. 8)

That is true. Some young women, including myself when I was younger, go through at least a brief sexual experimentation phase, during which they don't care very much about whether the relationship will be longterm.

But there are also lots of women who either don't go through such a phase at all or for whom that phase is very short.

Personally I went through two brief sexual experimentation phases (one in college and another one after college), followed by a much longer period during which I wanted relationships that were longterm though polyamorous.

But I'm under the impression that that's very unusual, and that the vast majority of women want longterm committed monogamous relationships and nothing else. And I would suspect that this is all the more likely to be true in states with very restrictive abortion laws.


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hurtloam
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07 May 2022, 10:34 pm

Do you really not understand human attraction and warm emotions? So much so that you think other people are lying about it? They're not lying. I think you know that.

You might relate to this video.



Jaiden at least understands that other people are genuinely attracted to each other even if she doesn't feel it herself.

I think the accurate title for your thread is, why didn't my friend believe that I needed to date literally anyone who would have me just to get the ball rolling? I understand why you did it. It's something I could never bring myself to do.

There was this unbearably boring and narrow minded guy who liked me when I was in my early 20s and I had coffee with him a couple of times, bit I realised I really didn't like his personality, even as a friend.

My friend said to me: " if you want a boyfriend so bad why don't you just go out with him." I replied that I didn't think it would be a nice thing to do because he really genuinely seemed to like me. I didn't like like him, but I didn't dislike him enough to torture him emotionally.

It's funny I had the exact opposite of your conversation. My friend was the one who didn't understand other humans. She's just grown more bitter and angry over the years.

Edit, I've just realised your title is a quote, not a question to us. On my defense it's 4am.



funeralxempire
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08 May 2022, 2:12 pm

Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

I think your friend thought you looked at dating the girl as just a milestone without considering both her as a person as well as the whole aspect of seeing her as a means to an end (getting to attend social gatherings with a date) rather than as a person to invest your time, attention and concern into; essentially leading her on emotionally. Honestly, it almost sounds like you're describing your end of the relationship like you were a sex trade worker with a client: I gave her the full boyfriend experience, all the romantic basics were included.


Who wouldn't see it this way? :scratch:

funeralxempire wrote:
If one's explanation for their relationship is I had to settle for someone I don't like just to have someone at all they owe it to their partner to let them go find someone who will actually be grateful for them and stop pretending they're that person.


I am sure he doesn't realise how disrespectful this attitude is.
I suggest you take his autism into consideration.


To be fair, I'm not sure one's autism is relevant when explaining how a social norm was broken or misunderstood. I'm not passing any judgment, I'm merely explaining the cause.

And if I've failed to adequately consider feelings or motives because they don't seem relevant when explaining what was done wrong (they're more of a why did it occur, not what was done matter, no?) I suggest you take my autism into consideration. 8)


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The_Face_of_Boo
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08 May 2022, 4:10 pm

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I had no car until I was 51. No license until age 37.

I had sex thousands of times with about 30 women before I got my license—none of whom were escorts.

Not saying this to brag….only saying this to seek to disprove all this Red Pill crap.

I’m a thoroughly beta man.


This I find hard to believe.
Are you employing "Hyperbole"?



He probably has hyberballs.

They never seem to dry for f*** sake.



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08 May 2022, 5:47 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
Personally, mutual sex drive and interest in at least one part of the personality, trustworthy motivation to get to know me, while finding no obvious reason why not to be together.

But that doesn't seem to be the motivation for most people.
Humans often need a steady goal to work towards, and a sense of being "needed."
And, in pre-industrial societies, living with another person was a more economical option than being alone.

I'm not surprised to find that in my environment some of the hardest and most painful jobs are "people with families" doing.
A partner, whether the relationship is real or fake or auto-suggested, provides "goal" and "needed" to help them endure the meaningless tortures of life.

For those who are more fortunate in life, this doesn't have to be the case, but there are still people who make a dedicated effort to "have a partner". And it happens at times that are sometimes even anti-social norms in my culture.
Maybe they were overwhelmed by the breeding instinct. Solving this problem allows them to focus on more important things.
Maybe they want the illusion of being needed to make their barren spirits look thriving.


Caring for someone is one of the most selfish things a person can do because it adds *meaning* to their lives.
You can blame this on an evolutionary quirk. 8)



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08 May 2022, 6:27 pm

Pepe wrote:
Caring for someone is one of the most selfish things a person can do because it adds *meaning* to their lives.
You can blame this on an evolutionary quirk. 8)
Good point. When I think about it from a certain point of view, love is a very selfish thing cuz we do things for the 1s we love to avoid feeling bad when they aren't around & we hate feeling bad when they feel bad :wink:


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08 May 2022, 8:16 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I think your friend thought you looked at dating the girl as just a milestone without considering both her as a person as well as the whole aspect of seeing her as a means to an end (getting to attend social gatherings with a date) rather than as a person to invest your time, attention and concern into; essentially leading her on emotionally. Honestly, it almost sounds like you're describing your end of the relationship like you were a sex trade worker with a client: I gave her the full boyfriend experience, all the romantic basics were included.

If one's explanation for their relationship is I had to settle for someone I don't like just to have someone at all they owe it to their partner to let them go find someone who will actually be grateful for them and stop pretending they're that person.

I think you---as well as my former friend--have a point there. The main reason I got together with that girl was to fulfill the social norm of having a date for the dance. But don't forget: I never had a girlfriend before. So all I had to learn from were my parents' love for me and the TV shows I watched. My parents' love for me was 100% transactional: it was rationed out in small amounts for obedient behavior and good grades. The shows I watched had guys taking in a girlfriend just to have a prom date. So everything I did back then seemed right. Although, when the dance actually took place, and she wouldn't dance with me in a snuggle, I knew to take the hint to stop talking to her. Which I did.

Speaking of being grateful, I was VERY GRATEFUL for having met her, at least until the dance. Even though I spent A LOT of time and effort to create romantic experiences for her, all I really needed to do was take her somewhere scenic right on campus and make a few edgy jokes. Basically, do what I did with the woman on the ship in 2019, rather than overexert myself to create a romantic experience for someone I barely knew.

Even so, what's highly ironic is that near-strangers I had met on my cruises, as well as platonic female friends, danced with me more affectionately than that college girl ever did. By which, I mean briefly pressing chest-to-chest to perform a dance move, holding hands, and what-have-you. You know, little things that just feel good. The college girl was a total failure in comparison.



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08 May 2022, 9:04 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think your friend thought you looked at dating the girl as just a milestone without considering both her as a person as well as the whole aspect of seeing her as a means to an end (getting to attend social gatherings with a date) rather than as a person to invest your time, attention and concern into; essentially leading her on emotionally. Honestly, it almost sounds like you're describing your end of the relationship like you were a sex trade worker with a client: I gave her the full boyfriend experience, all the romantic basics were included.

If one's explanation for their relationship is I had to settle for someone I don't like just to have someone at all they owe it to their partner to let them go find someone who will actually be grateful for them and stop pretending they're that person.

I think you---as well as my former friend--have a point there. The main reason I got together with that girl was to fulfill the social norm of having a date for the dance. But don't forget: I never had a girlfriend before. So all I had to learn from were my parents' love for me and the TV shows I watched. My parents' love for me was 100% transactional: it was rationed out in small amounts for obedient behavior and good grades. The shows I watched had guys taking in a girlfriend just to have a prom date. So everything I did back then seemed right. Although, when the dance actually took place, and she wouldn't dance with me in a snuggle, I knew to take the hint to stop talking to her. Which I did.

Speaking of being grateful, I was VERY GRATEFUL for having met her, at least until the dance. Even though I spent A LOT of time and effort to create romantic experiences for her, all I really needed to do was take her somewhere scenic right on campus and make a few edgy jokes. Basically, do what I did with the woman on the ship in 2019, rather than overexert myself to create a romantic experience for someone I barely knew.

Even so, what's highly ironic is that near-strangers I had met on my cruises, as well as platonic female friends, danced with me more affectionately than that college girl ever did. By which, I mean briefly pressing chest-to-chest to perform a dance move, holding hands, and what-have-you. You know, little things that just feel good. The college girl was a total failure in comparison.


For what it's worth I don't really mean to pass any judgment when I make those sorts of observations, it's pretty close to the same sort of phrasing I'd use when I need to make self-criticisms.

It's an issue that's complicated for outside observers (like your friend, or me, or anyone else commenting) because obviously there's stuff you feel and think but don't choose to share. Outside observers can only really use what's shared. It's unfair to suggest that you had no gratitude at all, it's fair to suggest your friend didn't perceive there to be much, or that your understanding might have been overly transactional.

I don't blame you for the impacts of that experience but at the same time I don't know how to describe the results in these sorts of situations without describing what appears to not be working. Being taught certain maladaptive understandings due to our early experiences sucks and sets one up for substantial struggles in whatever areas of life rely on that understanding - I have to deal with this myself in a number of areas, but it's important to not use that as an excuse even if it might serve as an explanation for why the patter of behaviour had existed.

It can be really hard on the ego to look at something about one's self and say oh, that's broken but it's better to try to repair it by questioning if the attitudes are still reasonable after understanding that one's experiences weren't normal and not aligned with how things work outside of that environment.

I think it's good that you've learned how to find people that are easier to relate to and how to relate to those people. It's not uncommon for people's early romantic attempts to be much more awkward because of not knowing what works but also what actually works for them.

I would college girl was more of a learning experience than a failure. Perhaps she picked up on the transactional vibe and felt the interest wasn't in her, it was in having a girlfriend. I feel like that would cause a loss of interest if some did exist on her part initially. Other times it's just lack of chemistry.


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Mona Pereth
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08 May 2022, 10:11 pm

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I had no car until I was 51. No license until age 37.

I had sex thousands of times with about 30 women before I got my license—none of whom were escorts.

Not saying this to brag….only saying this to seek to disprove all this Red Pill crap.

I’m a thoroughly beta man.


This I find hard to believe.
Are you employing "Hyperbole"?

kraftie and I grew up in the era of the "Sexual Revolution." I am under the impression that young people in general, including young women, tended to be a lot more sexually adventurous back then than they apparently are today, especially if they lived in large metro areas like the NYC area.


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09 May 2022, 12:03 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I had no car until I was 51. No license until age 37.

I had sex thousands of times with about 30 women before I got my license—none of whom were escorts.

Not saying this to brag….only saying this to seek to disprove all this Red Pill crap.

I’m a thoroughly beta man.


This I find hard to believe.
Are you employing "Hyperbole"?

kraftie and I grew up in the era of the "Sexual Revolution." I am under the impression that young people in general, including young women, tended to be a lot more sexually adventurous back then than they apparently are today, especially if they lived in large metro areas like the NYC area.


That may be the case, but I still find it hard to believe.
As Fnord would say: "Evidence!" :mrgreen:

BTW, Kraftie, you and I are roughly the same age. ;)