War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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Well, thats part of what "two fronts" is referring to.

The West is not a side in this conflict.
The West takes a side in this conflict.
The sides are Russia and Ukraine.

I didn't know that.

Well, given what you said, maybe it makes sense for Crimea to be separate from both Russia and Ukraine. Kind of what Putin wanted to do with Donentsk and Lugansk.

But then again, if Crimea should be separate from both Russia and Ukraine, then similarly Chechnia should be separate from Russia. So it would be hypocritical of Putin that he didn't let Chechnia separate a couple of decades ago.

By the way, its a bit ironic that Chechens are on the forefront of attacking Ukraine. So their own predicament doesn't translate into sympathy for Ukraine.

"The West" would be interfering in Russia's war against Ukraine only if Ukraine's president had not been asked for support from "The West".

Do you call their involvement "interference" only because of your support for Russia?

Depends which Chechens.
Sheikh Mansur Battalion and Dzhokhar Dudayev battalion have been reported to fight on Ukrainian side.

It's a flawed analogy to begin with. What Putin has done goes well beyond interference. It was a full scale invasion. How can the west interfere when help was specifically requested by Ukraine? The two things do not compare.

The implication is right there in the subject line YOU wrote for this thread -- "War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong".

Here is the syllogism of YOUR claim:

a. War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong.
b. Russia is attacking Ukraine, and Ukraine is defending itself.
: : Russia is wrong for attacking Ukraine, and Ukraine is wrong for defending itself.

The implication YOU made arises directly from YOUR claim.

By both sides I was referring to Russia and NATO, not Russia and Ukraine.

Russia is wrong for interfering in inner policy of Ukraine.

NATO is wrong for interfering in Russia-Ukraine relations.

Didn’t cyberdad or one of the others also say that some ethnic Russians in East Ukraine regions requested Putin’s help?

They did briefly give Chechnya defacto independence in the mid 90`s as Russia were not strong enough to re-claim it when they broke away after the fall of the USSR.

Then Chechnya dissolved into Islamic extremism and chaos, launching raiding attacks against Russia`s southern border. 2 British people were beheaded there at the time also.

Some claim it was one of the first glimpses to 911 and war on terror. There was the mysterious appartment bombings in Russia that some believe Putin did as a pretext to war, as a false flag, then Russia successfully invaded it in year 2000.

Russia invaded Ukraine.
NATO provides aid inside Ukraine. NATO did not invade Russia.

Same as above.

Speaking of this comparison, both sides are hypocritical:

--- Russia is hypocritical for acknowledging Chechnya terrorism while denying Iran's threat

--- West is hypocritican in acknowledging Irans threat and denying Chechnya terrorism

Which makes me think that both sides use terrorists as a weapons to attack the other side. Chechens are weapons that West can use to attack Russia, and Iranians are weapons that Russia can use to attack the West.

And the same principle applies to any other "local minority group" that the country opposes:

--- Ukrainians, being "Soviet minority" can be used by the West to attack Russia

--- Blacks, being "American minority" have been used by USSR to attack the US during Cold War

So neither side really cares about "minorities" of the other side. Defending their rights is just the way of attacking their opponents. Thats what makes it a cold war rather than hot war: instead of attacking the side you really hate, you are just defending the supposed oppressed minorities.

Ukraine is just a playground where both sides staged the war. Russian allegation is that people at Maidan were not just Ukrainians but rather the people America sent there. American allegation is that rebels in Crimea were not local Crimeans but rather the people Russia sent there. But now what if both allegations are true? Then Ukraine is just one of the playgrounds for Russia and US to fight against each other.

Last edited by QFT on 20 May 2022, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As an "supposed oppressed minority", I agree with you on that statement.

Yes of course Russia is being hypocritical with supporting separatism abroad but not at home when it suits them.

By the way Texas has an tiny independence movement. Guess where their HQ is... yes Russia

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/russi ... 9aca9f61d/

Major separatist forces in China:
A. Xinjiang
Historical support: United States, Soviet Union
B. Hongkong
No specific support is mentioned in the wiki, but I'm sure some Australian and other countries' media have had rather biased coverage of a faction's armed insurrection.
C. Tibet
Headquarters: India, Netherlands, United States
D. Taiwan
No explanation needed


We don't have to pretend that this is a rare practice.

You mean a seperatist group rebelling against Ukrainian government? Sure. But the region is still part of the nation of Ukraine. Now if Russia was just supplying arms to the seperatists for them to fight on their own then that might be comparable to what NATO countries are doing for Ukraine. But Russia launched a full scale invasion and not just in Donbas to help the seperatists but on the entire nation. Russia wasn't really trying to save ethnic Russians. Those folks are dying and suffering as much as non ethnic Russians. It was just an excuse.