Божий суд над великой блудницей

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naturalplastic
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20 May 2022, 5:50 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong: it's a very similar thing in Chinese history, minus much of the "religious" factor.

Everything else is quite similar when comparing European and Chinese history.

In my opinion, ancient Chinese history is very different from ancient European history.

In terms of religion, ancient Chinese religions were all quite pragmatic and secular.
Taoism, the native Chinese religion, promotes seclusion and alchemy, and is not keen on recruiting members, so it is quite peaceful.
During the Tang Dynasty(618AD-907AD), Buddhism was violently suppressed by the emperor because it led to land annexation. This is likely the reason for the secularization of ancient Chinese religions.

Those violent cult-like revolutions themselves were only part of the bloody peasant revolution—the latter of which is not uncommon in Chinese history. This is closer to ancient superstition than a systematic religion. And it's hard to tell exactly which religion they're using.
Folk superstitions in China are often so mixed with Buddhism and Taoism that they cannot form any system.

Although individual emperors have shown interest in Buddhism, China has never had any form of unity of state and religion.
China from the Han Dynasty(202BC-220AD) used the idea of "on the surface Confucianism, but in fact Legalism" to govern, but this is closer to ideology than religion.

In terms of political power, since the Qin Dynasty (221-207), the feudal era in the European sense ended in China. Most of the time the main body of China was a unified dynasty, and most of the remaining time was divided into two parts, north and south, due to ethnic groups. Sorting into more parts only in a very short time.
In such large regimes, centralization continued to be strengthened until it reached its peak during the Qing Dynasty (1636-1912). In this case, the whole country belongs to the emperor: The emperor was highly vigilant against any domestic forces that might threaten him, and there was no clear line between "state property" and "royal property".
It wasn't until the Reform Movement of 1898 that China began trying to limit crown power, nearly three centuries after Europe.

Beginning in the Sui Dynasty (581-618), Chinese bureaucratic selection began to use examinations rather than bloodline or recommendation. This continued until the end of the Qing Dynasty. This means that most families with the slightest ambition choose to have their children do academic studies (in the Confucian sense, mainly literature and philosophy) rather than religious studies. This has led to the fervent pursuit of academic intelligence in Chinese culture.

To sum up, authoritarianism, technocratism and Confucian ideology have an important place in Chinese culture, not religion. Chinese culture does not leave much room for religion.

But I've been a STEM student since high school. My understanding of Chinese history is not systematic. This is my personal impression.

Yes, traditional Chinese culture doesnt slice things up quite the way the west does. Differentiating one religion from another, nor even differentiating religion from non religion. The result is that unlike the Middle East and Europe they were essentially no "wars of religion" during most of Chinese history. A person could adhere to more than one "religion" (Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and peasant folk beliefs). And competing creeds like "Legalism" ( vaguely like modern western fascism), and Confuciansim, were as much or more like political ideologies than religions.

Ironically, in relatively modern times when China first DID apply religion to politics it was a disaster.

The West began the process of extorting trade concessions from China during the 19th century (notably Britain in the Opium Wars). During this time Christian missionaries began introducing Christianity to the Chinese peasants. One ambitious young Chinese guy tried for the Confucian civil service exam, but flunked. His hopes dashed, he went a little nuts - took what he learned of New Testament from Missionaries, became convinced that he was "the younger brother of Jesus Christ", and proceeded to start a cult, and then a nation wide rebellion. The result was the Tai Ping Rebellion. The bloodiest civil war in human history. And the second bloodiest war of any kind in history (more loss of life than in the First World War, and second only to the Second World War).

The British and French sent armies to help crush the rebellion (they had already extorted benefits from the Manchu Emperors, so they didnt wanna hafta do all that work of extorting same stuff from a new regime all over again so they felt it was in their interests to keep the emperor in power).

So a bastardized form of Christianity, promulgated by a David Koresh type leader did raise havoc in China in the 19th Century.

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20 May 2022, 6:15 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

So a bastardized form of Christianity, promulgated by a David Koresh type leader did raise havoc in China in the 19th Century.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=403904&hilit#p9031554
I briefly talked a little bit about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom here.
I noticed that Westerners were so impressed by this event and seemed to focus on describing its religious overtones.

After the Qing Dynasty, due to the fact that each faction had a nationalist trend of anti-colonialism/anti-manchu-Qing, and the Communist Party had a revolutionary view of history, most Chinese data gave a rather unobjective evaluation of this event. The evaluation of this history in the various factions in China (including Taiwan) is closer to the elaboration of political positions than the study of historical materials.
As for the specific details, due to the demonization of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom by the Qing Dynasty, it is actually difficult to verify how many are true.
I try to choose sources that I think are as close to objective as possible.

The following is an encyclopedia entry from "inside" in mainland China. Described in terms of class.

Quote:

Regarding the nature of the Taiping Rebellion, there are obvious differences among historians. To sum up, there are roughly two types:

The first is that it is an old-fashioned peasant revolution.
For example, Liu Danian said in his article "Several Problems in the Study of Modern Chinese History": "During the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, the feudal economy dominated, and the most common and prominent contradiction in social life was the contradiction between farmers and landlords." The masses are the masses in the old-style peasant war." Therefore, "the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom is the pinnacle of the old-style peasant revolution."

The second is that it has a bourgeois revolutionary nature.
For example, Guo Yisheng pointed out in the article "On the Nature of the Taiping Revolution": The Taiping Revolution was undeniably the peasant war, and the peasants were the main force of the revolution.
But it broke out after China began to enter a semi-feudal and semi-colonial society, and it rose in Guangdong and Guangxi, where the economy was relatively developed and the traffic between China and the West was frequent. "At this time, new changes have taken place in all social classes. The peasants are no longer feudal peasants in the Middle Ages. They have the characteristics of bourgeois democrats. Besides the peasants, there is a new class of citizens."
... Therefore, the Taiping Revolution had to have many characteristics that were very different from the simple peasant wars of the past. Among them, such as the concept of equality put forward in the political program, and the idea of denying autocratic theocracy and autocratic regime, it has a more obvious bourgeois nature. "

Other sources come from the Chinese version of Wikipedia, "outside" mainland China. I chose one of the statements mentioned in it that fits my perception.

Quote:

The Taiping Army led by Hong Xiuquan was a rebel team launched and developed by the leaders using superstition. His set of teachings, canons, and precepts not only strictly controlled those who participated in the rebellion from spiritual to material, but also cut off all possible escape routes. They refer to the fact that Hong Xiuquan personally occupies the world and establishes his own 'heaven on earth'. This Hong clan religion, dressed in the guise of Christianity and under the guise of God the Father, carried out extremely cruel deprivation and rule of the military and civilians under his control with the decadent thoughts and rules of Chinese slave owners and feudal emperors. This is actually a political cult of extreme egoism.

My point is that this movement borrows a lot of Christian terms, but doesn't actually have much to do with Christianity.
It's like how the previous Chinese culture conflated the concepts of various religions. It is closer to a secular regime.

But other accounts mention that he was actually (unreliably) modernizing, but using the "Christian Civilization Concept" incorrectly, confusing modernization with Christianization.
And on the other hand, the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom vehemently opposed various colonial treaties, insisting that the Chinese, not the Manchu Qing government, decide their own affairs.
In this sense, the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom was more advanced than the Qing government (What could not be more progressive than the Qing government? :wink:

), but it failed under the joint encirclement and suppression of the Qing Dynasty and the colonizer.
Although there are many absurdities in the Taiping Rebellion, it is the result of Chinese civilians being oppressed to the extreme by the Qing government and the colonizers. This movement opened space for later anti-Qing revolutionaries.
The ignorance and brutal rule of the Qing Dynasty made it impossible for more progressive forces to have the soil at that time. I don't really want to accuse slaves of rioting without elegance.

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20 May 2022, 9:33 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

But no American would take kindly to some person speaking about some sort of "divine retribution" for the USA.

Plenty of Americans have that opinion too. I read plenty of American websites that talk about USA being the Harlet.

And to answer your question, the notion of Harlet comes from the Book of Revelation. But the Book of Revelation is very symbolic so when it pictures harlet it doesn't say what it symbolizes. Hence there are a lot of speculative attempts to interpret it. And the idea that it symbolizes America is a very common interpretation, shared by many American Christians too.

Also other responders are right that both Russian side and American side assume that God is on their side and in fact think of themselves as God-bearer. So Russian view is that God is on Russian side and America is anti-god, while Americn view is that God is on American side and Russia is anti-God.

But then both sides cite America being a harlot which leads to a question how do American Christians claim that God is on American side and also claim that America is a harlet, at the same time. Roughly speaking, American Christian view goes along the following lines. That basically America, as originally created by its founding fathers, was on God's side, but America the way it currently is, is a harlet. And that it was prophesized to fall away the way it is. So "make America great again" basically means "lets reverse time so that America can leave its current harlet role and come back to its past role as a god-bearer".

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20 May 2022, 9:53 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:

And the Russians seem to be interested in Texas.

That particular Russian lives in USA. He said he moved from California to Texas by divine intervention because California is about to experience God's retribution in the form of a combination of nuclear strike and parts of it sinking under the ocean.

He said that a friend of his, who didn't know he moved to Texas, had a dream of divine retribution against both California and other coastal regions. And in his dream a lot of his friends who live there died. But then he was told that this particular man did not die because he left. He didn't actually know that he left. Yet, after he spoke to him, he found out that he in fact did. So he used it as a confirmation that it was a divine vision.

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20 May 2022, 9:55 pm

roronoa79 wrote:

Russian nationalism has been tied to Orthodox Christianity (ie: the Orthodox Church) for centuries.

I would bet 99% that this guy is a Protestant and not Russian Orthodox at all. He started his video with Shalom, which means he is Messinic, and vast majority of Messianics are Protestants.

But other than that you are correct that Orthodox Christianity views Russia as a God-bearer. Very much like American Protestants view America as such.

But since that guy is probably a Protestant, I am actually not sure how he views Russia. Would be interesting to know.

The_Walrus
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21 May 2022, 4:03 am

QFT wrote:

roronoa79 wrote:

Russian nationalism has been tied to Orthodox Christianity (ie: the Orthodox Church) for centuries.

He says "shabbat shalom" and seems to be wearing a kippah. He is probably Jewish.

SkinnedWolf
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21 May 2022, 4:09 am

QFT wrote:

SkinnedWolf wrote:

And the Russians seem to be interested in Texas.

Rumor has it that the Texas separatist forces have Russian attention. I wonder if this claim is true.

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21 May 2022, 6:34 am

An aside, for those who maybe hadn't done so owing to manipulation difficulties with their device -

A Google translate of the first part of the description on the YouTube page says: America is going to destruction in fire! Sudden destruction draws near and few will escape. Suddenly, in one hour, a nuclear catastrophe will engulf America - and this nation will no longer exist. This will happen because America has sinned against the Great and Almighty God. Other nations are also sinful, but none of them has been flooded with the gospel light as it is in the United States. God will judge America for her violence, for her crimes, for her apostasy, for her murder of millions of babies, for her appearance of piety without power, for her lukewarmness to Christ, for rampant divorce and adultery, for her vile pornography, for her fraud, robberies, dirty films that Hollywood releases and for its occultism. In one hour it will all be over. Believe it or not, America is close to being shaken and rejected by the swift and terrible judgments. Many other believers who are constantly in prayer and who are in the presence of God hear the same thing: “Judgment is at the door! Get ready, wake up!”

We are all living in a very difficult time right now. Let's unite our efforts and pray for each other. We will ask for protection over us and our families. We will pray for protection from enemies and for God to protect us and our homes in our places of residence, we will pray for our children and for all our needs and problems, for work, for health, for the healing of those who are sick, for repentance and the awakening of many more of people.

Join the prayer group and let's pray together!
Link to the prayer group in Telegram "Prayer for you" - https://t.me/prayerforyou If you have needs and need prayer support, write your needs to this prayer group and we will pray for you. There are many people there and we pray around the clock. Remember: With God, everything is possible!

So umm, yeah... :scratch:

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magz
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21 May 2022, 6:38 am

^ In video games I play, there's often a guy in the middle of the marketplace, shouting things like that, only adapting the nationalities and religions to the game's universe.

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21 May 2022, 6:43 am

Yep - that was sometimes a diversion on the London Underground, someone raving like that at the rest of the carriage.
We had nowhere to hide! :lol:

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magz
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21 May 2022, 7:02 am

Cornflake wrote:

Yep - that was sometimes a diversion on the London Underground, someone raving like that at the rest of the carriage.
We had nowhere to hide!

Oh man, that sounds worse than a Gypsy playing an accordion (common nuisance in public transport here)

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21 May 2022, 7:05 am

It's not surprising that there are any claims.
Focal point with more value is how much quantitative and proportional support is under the claim. (And, how much support these supports.)

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TwilightPrincess
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21 May 2022, 7:10 am

It’s interesting how similar cults are. Mine would say almost identical garbage but instead of focusing on America they state that God will destroy all the things in the world which they consider bad which would be most things - including all governments and anyone who doesn’t belong to the same exact religion.

It’s incredibly boring.

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kitesandtrainsandcats
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21 May 2022, 7:14 am

Quote:

Suddenly, in one hour, a nuclear catastrophe will engulf America - and this nation will no longer exist. This will happen because America has sinned against the Great and Almighty God.

Let me guess, the nation which launches those nukes at America will be blessed by God for doing his will.

Or maybe God will make America launch America's nukes against itself?

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21 May 2022, 7:19 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:

Quote:

Suddenly, in one hour, a nuclear catastrophe will engulf America - and this nation will no longer exist. This will happen because America has sinned against the Great and Almighty God.

Let me guess, the nation which launches those nukes at America will be blessed by God for doing his will.

Or maybe God will make America launch America's nukes against itself?

I’m wondering why God needs to resort to nukes. Usually, it’d be fireballs raining down from the sky dispatched by the Almighty himself.

It’s like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 21 May 2022, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

SkinnedWolf
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21 May 2022, 7:22 am

Twilightprincess wrote:

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:

Quote:

Suddenly, in one hour, a nuclear catastrophe will engulf America - and this nation will no longer exist. This will happen because America has sinned against the Great and Almighty God.

Let me guess, the nation which launches those nukes at America will be blessed by God for doing his will.

Or maybe God will make America launch America's nukes against itself?

I’m wondering why God needs to resort to nukes.

It’s like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

God actually used the Great Substitution to punish America. :evil:

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